A transport needs to work with a DAC in order to produce the analog signal, to me, it is not exactly a tightly coupled set of device which must be used single brandedly. Common interfaces are AES/EBU, RCA, BNC, Optical and lately HDMI, USB. I therefore interlink the 2 transports and 2 DACs with one HDMI (Silence Wire), one AES/EBU (FMR), two RCA (Wire World Platinum Starlight).
What I learnt most is both designers are making their CD combo with clear and out of the box objectives and design principles. most importantly, they both are very successful in achieving the synergistical benefits. Mating them to a transport or dac of a different brand can yield a taste of both but not necessarily the best of both. Again, if I take an analogy of a car, what constitute the best in class sports car is not just the engine, but also the suspension, the brake,etc. Likewise, what constitutes a luxurious limousine is also depending on all the above plus the interior design, etc. Crossing mixing them would not create a sporty limousine without any compromise. For Vekian and Neodio, I truly respect the musical intention and knowledge of the designers and therefore I recommned using a combo in order to appreciate to the full extent the original design objectives. X-linking is just for fun and recently I am more focused in listening either on the V-combo or the ND-combo.
Raymond, I'd like to take you up on your suggestion about asking more questions.
I've been reading with interest some of the things said about the NeoDio cdt and did a little research on them a few weeks back. One of my customers has their integrated amp and loves it but I've not yet heard it.
I was excited to read that the ND components are built with the resonance energy transfer (coupling) methodology in mind. Rather than the isolation/damping (decoupling) methodology so prevelant in the industry today.
Not having heard the ND cdp I would speculate that some to much of the ND's performance benefits can be attributed to the manufacturer's particular attention to vibration management. It just so happens that the RTS racking system is designed entirely with this methodology in mind. At least on paper.
To the contrary, the Vekian components (and most components) adhere to the isolation/damping aka decoupling methodology as this was confirmed in my conversation with Mike Stahl at CES last January and in their product literature.
So when you guys mention introducing more variables by cross-playing the cdt and DACs, or one of the components having a constrained damping layer etc, I'd like to suggest that you are already cross-playing your components. Vibration-wise that is. When one hears a CDP in one venue and another or same at another venue, everybody is using different racking systems (and different flooring systems) employing different vibration methodologies. And in this case you have 2 leading CDP manufacturers employing diametrically opposed vibration management methodologies.
For example, I can't help but think mating the Vekians to the RTS platform is about as cross-playing as one can reasonably get. It's truly mating apples with oranges, almost a tug of war, yet there is still success, perhaps even great success.
That said, I have a few questions that might be worth some consideration and hopefully are along the same vein as Marvel's best in class sports car analogy: (Being 6000 miles away I can only speculate what you guys are hearing and where you might be listening so please bear with me).
1. As excellent as the NeoDio's sound, how much better might they sound if they were mated to the RTS where both employed the same vibration methodology?
2. As excellent as the Vekians sound, how much better might they sound if they employed the same vibration methodology as NeoDio?
3. What does it say about the two vibration methodologies when even though the Vekians' vibration management methodology is diametrically opposed to that of the RTS', the RTS is still able to reach deep down into the Vekians and vastly improve their performance?
4. As the designer of the RTS I have to ask, how much better might the RTS sound if every component placed on it adhered to the same vibration methodology as the NeoDio?
I'm a firm believer that no component is an island and all components are severely even grossly distorted by mechanical vibrations (and noisy AC). If that is true, then I would not discount the potentially tremendous influence (good or bad) of the platform (and flooring system) underneath the NDs or Vekiens. If I really wanted to know exactly how one CDP compared to another, I would A/B compare the 2 CDPs over maybe a week's time on one rack adhering to the isolation/damping methodology and then I'd move both CDPs over to another rack adhering to the vibration transfer (like the RTS) for a week or so. Or at the very least, A/B compare them on the same rack.
IMO, especially since the CDPs employ different vibration methodologies, anything short of this really is comparing apples to oranges and neither CDP has the opportunity to be the clear winner or at least demonstrate its full potential.
Anyway, that's my two cents and I say hats off to NeoDio for bucking conventional wisdom in their construction philosophy and though it will take some time, I speculate and hope that one day every serious performance-oriented manufacturer will eventually follow ND's lead.
John, I am saving money for your RTS rack. I like it very much. Give me some time. I agree with you that Marvel is not comparing apple to apple just on the difference of mechanical vibration management between Neodio and the Vekian. But he is doing this for fun and his conclusions are interesting to read. But I will not take them too seriously.
I wasn't trying to single anybody out and I apologize if that's how I came across. I was really only trying to emphasize the potentially very significant variable of matching vibration methodologies and emphasizing their importance, especially when components are designed with differing methodologies in mind.
I know my customer loves what the integrated ND does for him.
-John
BTW, next week we'll be exhibiting at THE Show in Newport Beach, California. We've made some extraordinary developments in the last few months with the RTS and elsewhere so I'm anticipating and hoping to put together a very unique presentation. If per chance any of you are in the neighborhood please stop by and introduce yourselves.
JLam promoted your rack aggressively to us but I have to say you really need to improve it further. The finishing quality can be better. The execution of the L-shaped clamp is a bit rough and the length of it clamping the Vekian at the showroom is not exact.
The price is not cheap and flexibility compares wih other racks isn't there. For example, once the preamp is clamped at the 2nd shelf, I have to take out everything above should I want to swap to another preamps. This holds me back. I know you have an extreme solution on hand but you need to consider from customer's perspective as well. Not many are aiming for the extreme solution.
I hope my comment won't hold you back. Keep up the good works.
Raymond, thank you for your constructive criticism and your frankness.
I should mention first that I treat high-end audio as a balls out, full throttle top fuel drag race and the name of this 'high-end' game is intended to bring our playback systems closer to the absolute sound and I hope the RTS reflects that perspective. In other words, the RTS was never intended to win any beauty contests, although if were in one, I'm confident that the RTS just might walk away with an honorable mention ribbon.
I could easily have opted for custom paint finishes which I've had done in time past, but custom paint finishes cost significantly more and raises the price and becomes far more susceptible to scratches, chips, etc. The current finish, though perhaps not top shelf is what I've considered sufficient and very durable.
The custom L-shaped clamps you mention were designed specifically for the Vekians. I attempted to match the bottom of the clamps to line up with the bottom of the Vekians for aesthetic reasons and ended up mismeasuring. JLam and I spoke about possible resolutions including replacement clamps but he said to hold off for now because he was enjoying it as-is. IMO, the best solution is a 1-inch thick rubber object between the clamps and glass tops to keep the glass from shattering and then the clamps should fit well.
Which leads to your point on flexibility. The clamping system is a new concept and for the standard sized and shaped components a universal clamping system like the one used for the Tron Syren component clamping should not be an issue. For top loader cdt's and some tubed equipment or non-standard dimensioned components the universal clamps will not work and hence a custom clamp must be designed specifically for the component. But the clamps really should be considered optional and not mandatory. Even without the clamps the components' performance should soar.
But in my book performance comes first and for that I've been willing to work with the customer to squeeze every last bit of performance out of the component to maximize their listening pleasure. As you might imagine measuring components from 7000 miles away can make things a bit more interesting.
JLam and I have discussed the perception at AE that the RTS is not flexible like other platforms. As I recall I mentioned to JLam that perhaps the clamps should be offered only as an option and every shelf would come standard with a 3 pod stance, then the user would still achieve most of the RTS' performance and the RTS could accommodate most any component regardless of dimensions, tubes, top loaders, etc. There's the small footprint, ventilation, cable accessibility, etc. none of which should never be an issue. Moreover, the RTS can go 4 or 5 components high and 2 or 3 bays wide, clamping, and each shelf can easily sustain well over 500 lbs. with ease. No other platform can touch some of these features. So where others may see a lack of flexibility as I mentioned to JLam, in some ways the RTS is perhaps the most flexible of all platforms.
As for the RTS holding you back when you're moving a preamp in and out and having to remove the components above. That may be true, but to some extent all racking systems have this potential dilemma.
If a reviewer or a distributor/dealer is constantly moving components in and out of the RTS, I suggest leaving an extra few inches between shelves so that it becomes a rare event.
For the end-user who keeps the same components for several years at a time, this should not be much of an issue but it all depends on how much spacing they want between the shelves.
Like many performance-oriented products the RTS is the end result of real world compromises.
Surely I'm not alone here. Take the Tidal subwoofer x-over which must be turned upside down to make config changes.
Better yet, for decades Ferrari was known for its primitive shifters, and whether or not they ever corrected it, it's still a Ferrari and that primitive shifter even became a Ferrari trademark for a time.
With regard to your last question about improvements, I have some new Conduits (cones) of a special material that go through a new patent-pending process (not mine) that make the performance benefits more immediate as well as improved overall.
In addition, there were a few things I took for granted at the last show that will be addressed at this next show, along with a significant discovery that I'm not at liberty to share at the moment but will later. Nevertheless, the combination of all 3 elements makes for very substantial gains.
As I am preparing for this next show I came across the stack of business cards I accumulated from THE Show last January and it looks as though I have your oasis-audio biz card. Did you visit my room? If so, I wish you would have introduced yourself.
Following the footsteps of Marvel, I also ended up buying the Neodio 22 DAC. Together with my Takumi K-10/K-70 combo driving the Cessaro, Mark Knofpler is alive in front of me playing guitar.
What surprised me the most is the speed of the Neodio in the bass area. It is lightning fast with all the shades and subtones hanging in the air with the right time before the next snap grab you.
Wchow, get the transport as well, don't underestimate the power of the combo and to some extent I like the ND combo more than the pairing the ND DAC with the Vekian transport although I believe the latter is already a superbly built transport in its outright. Vocal under ND combo is really lively, strong 3-dimensionality, with lust but not over bright...I repeatedly swap my favourite Sissle In Symphony CD between the Vekian and ND Combo track by track tonight, the result is clear to me that I like ND more on vocal. This is as conclusive as I like cello by ND more after so many rounds of comparison. May be the HDMI cable in the Vekian is the culprit after reading the comments by Shanghai Bigpiece in another thread....
Had you visited the AE showroom lately? I was in absolute shock after PT played the Joan Baez Live in Newport recording. I listened straight from track 1 to 6.
I had a long chat of PT about the Vekian suite because I can't reproduce Joan Baez at such level of realism in my home. It is not just the human flesh of the vocal but the relationship of the vocal to the surrounding environment. Damn it. It is so cool. This analog domain amp is really something serious stuff. I don't feel like listening to high power solid state amp at all.
PT said his system wasn't performing at where it should be an customer plays the Chie Ayado Live recording awhile back. The high frequency energy was piercing and the audiences at the back sounded like paper puppet without body. And that was the time when he firstly installed the AQ diamond HDMI for a day.
What surprised me is he was able to reproduce the bad sound by tilting the speaker positions just a little bit (both channel). Damn it... Damn it... all the magic was gone. The highs are protruded, and the tonal balance tilted upwards noticeably. But it was only half an inch move. Though I don't remember which direction but this demo was great learning experiences for me.
What he did lately was to put another carpet under the desk area. Noise floor at the back which was already dead quiet probably become more quieter by 1db. Those zigzags further diminished.
Speaker positioning can completely change the verdict, much more so than cables. After-all, the AQ HDMI is excellent in every regards. When we plugged back the Starlight Platinum, I hit the stop button when Joan Baez started singing.
The resolution of this system is.... run out of words to describe.... I can even feel the dynamic of different audience sections. Not just the spatial resolution but the mood and sentiment of the audiences conveyed by the degree of their engagements etc.....
When I told Butcher the Orpheus 0/1SE with SMR digital cable (I recommended this set to him almost 4 years ago) do not stand a chance against the NEODIO NR22 one box CD player, he was skeptical.
Right out of the box without warm up playing his familiar CDs, he could not help smiling in a controlled manner. 30 minutes later, we sent the Orpheus old combo to 2nd hand dealer in MK.
I told him this is not about a BATTLE OF THE SAME CLASS. It is something else. I believe it will rekindle his interest in his system as he told me he had not turned on his for quite awhile.
The NR22 DAC/CDT combo is currently the digital reference of Peter Brem at Da Vinci. We know this guy only listens to vinyl all through his life. But even he commented that he had never listened to any digital sources that can reveal so much tonal color like the NeoDio.
Comments
A transport needs to work with a DAC in order to produce the analog signal, to me, it is not exactly a tightly coupled set of device which must be used single brandedly. Common interfaces are AES/EBU, RCA, BNC, Optical and lately HDMI, USB. I therefore interlink the 2 transports and 2 DACs with one HDMI (Silence Wire), one AES/EBU (FMR), two RCA (Wire World Platinum Starlight).
What I learnt most is both designers are making their CD combo with clear and out of the box objectives and design principles. most importantly, they both are very successful in achieving the synergistical benefits. Mating them to a transport or dac of a different brand can yield a taste of both but not necessarily the best of both. Again, if I take an analogy of a car, what constitute the best in class sports car is not just the engine, but also the suspension, the brake,etc. Likewise, what constitutes a luxurious limousine is also depending on all the above plus the interior design, etc. Crossing mixing them would not create a sporty limousine without any compromise. For Vekian and Neodio, I truly respect the musical intention and knowledge of the designers and therefore I recommned using a combo in order to appreciate to the full extent the original design objectives. X-linking is just for fun and recently I am more focused in listening either on the V-combo or the ND-combo.
Marvel
I've been reading with interest some of the things said about the NeoDio cdt and did a little research on them a few weeks back. One of my customers has their integrated amp and loves it but I've not yet heard it.
I was excited to read that the ND components are built with the resonance energy transfer (coupling) methodology in mind. Rather than the isolation/damping (decoupling) methodology so prevelant in the industry today.
Not having heard the ND cdp I would speculate that some to much of the ND's performance benefits can be attributed to the manufacturer's particular attention to vibration management. It just so happens that the RTS racking system is designed entirely with this methodology in mind. At least on paper.
To the contrary, the Vekian components (and most components) adhere to the isolation/damping aka decoupling methodology as this was confirmed in my conversation with Mike Stahl at CES last January and in their product literature.
So when you guys mention introducing more variables by cross-playing the cdt and DACs, or one of the components having a constrained damping layer etc, I'd like to suggest that you are already cross-playing your components. Vibration-wise that is. When one hears a CDP in one venue and another or same at another venue, everybody is using different racking systems (and different flooring systems) employing different vibration methodologies. And in this case you have 2 leading CDP manufacturers employing diametrically opposed vibration management methodologies.
For example, I can't help but think mating the Vekians to the RTS platform is about as cross-playing as one can reasonably get. It's truly mating apples with oranges, almost a tug of war, yet there is still success, perhaps even great success.
That said, I have a few questions that might be worth some consideration and hopefully are along the same vein as Marvel's best in class sports car analogy: (Being 6000 miles away I can only speculate what you guys are hearing and where you might be listening so please bear with me).
1. As excellent as the NeoDio's sound, how much better might they sound if they were mated to the RTS where both employed the same vibration methodology?
2. As excellent as the Vekians sound, how much better might they sound if they employed the same vibration methodology as NeoDio?
3. What does it say about the two vibration methodologies when even though the Vekians' vibration management methodology is diametrically opposed to that of the RTS', the RTS is still able to reach deep down into the Vekians and vastly improve their performance?
4. As the designer of the RTS I have to ask, how much better might the RTS sound if every component placed on it adhered to the same vibration methodology as the NeoDio?
I'm a firm believer that no component is an island and all components are severely even grossly distorted by mechanical vibrations (and noisy AC). If that is true, then I would not discount the potentially tremendous influence (good or bad) of the platform (and flooring system) underneath the NDs or Vekiens. If I really wanted to know exactly how one CDP compared to another, I would A/B compare the 2 CDPs over maybe a week's time on one rack adhering to the isolation/damping methodology and then I'd move both CDPs over to another rack adhering to the vibration transfer (like the RTS) for a week or so. Or at the very least, A/B compare them on the same rack.
IMO, especially since the CDPs employ different vibration methodologies, anything short of this really is comparing apples to oranges and neither CDP has the opportunity to be the clear winner or at least demonstrate its full potential.
Anyway, that's my two cents and I say hats off to NeoDio for bucking conventional wisdom in their construction philosophy and though it will take some time, I speculate and hope that one day every serious performance-oriented manufacturer will eventually follow ND's lead.
-John
I wasn't trying to single anybody out and I apologize if that's how I came across. I was really only trying to emphasize the potentially very significant variable of matching vibration methodologies and emphasizing their importance, especially when components are designed with differing methodologies in mind.
I know my customer loves what the integrated ND does for him.
-John
BTW, next week we'll be exhibiting at THE Show in Newport Beach, California. We've made some extraordinary developments in the last few months with the RTS and elsewhere so I'm anticipating and hoping to put together a very unique presentation. If per chance any of you are in the neighborhood please stop by and introduce yourselves.
JLam promoted your rack aggressively to us but I have to say you really need to improve it further. The finishing quality can be better. The execution of the L-shaped clamp is a bit rough and the length of it clamping the Vekian at the showroom is not exact.
The price is not cheap and flexibility compares wih other racks isn't there. For example, once the preamp is clamped at the 2nd shelf, I have to take out everything above should I want to swap to another preamps. This holds me back. I know you have an extreme solution on hand but you need to consider from customer's perspective as well. Not many are aiming for the extreme solution.
I hope my comment won't hold you back. Keep up the good works.
What are the improvements?
Ray
I should mention first that I treat high-end audio as a balls out, full throttle top fuel drag race and the name of this 'high-end' game is intended to bring our playback systems closer to the absolute sound and I hope the RTS reflects that perspective. In other words, the RTS was never intended to win any beauty contests, although if were in one, I'm confident that the RTS just might walk away with an honorable mention ribbon.
I could easily have opted for custom paint finishes which I've had done in time past, but custom paint finishes cost significantly more and raises the price and becomes far more susceptible to scratches, chips, etc. The current finish, though perhaps not top shelf is what I've considered sufficient and very durable.
The custom L-shaped clamps you mention were designed specifically for the Vekians. I attempted to match the bottom of the clamps to line up with the bottom of the Vekians for aesthetic reasons and ended up mismeasuring. JLam and I spoke about possible resolutions including replacement clamps but he said to hold off for now because he was enjoying it as-is. IMO, the best solution is a 1-inch thick rubber object between the clamps and glass tops to keep the glass from shattering and then the clamps should fit well.
Which leads to your point on flexibility. The clamping system is a new concept and for the standard sized and shaped components a universal clamping system like the one used for the Tron Syren component clamping should not be an issue. For top loader cdt's and some tubed equipment or non-standard dimensioned components the universal clamps will not work and hence a custom clamp must be designed specifically for the component. But the clamps really should be considered optional and not mandatory. Even without the clamps the components' performance should soar.
But in my book performance comes first and for that I've been willing to work with the customer to squeeze every last bit of performance out of the component to maximize their listening pleasure. As you might imagine measuring components from 7000 miles away can make things a bit more interesting.
JLam and I have discussed the perception at AE that the RTS is not flexible like other platforms. As I recall I mentioned to JLam that perhaps the clamps should be offered only as an option and every shelf would come standard with a 3 pod stance, then the user would still achieve most of the RTS' performance and the RTS could accommodate most any component regardless of dimensions, tubes, top loaders, etc. There's the small footprint, ventilation, cable accessibility, etc. none of which should never be an issue. Moreover, the RTS can go 4 or 5 components high and 2 or 3 bays wide, clamping, and each shelf can easily sustain well over 500 lbs. with ease. No other platform can touch some of these features. So where others may see a lack of flexibility as I mentioned to JLam, in some ways the RTS is perhaps the most flexible of all platforms.
As for the RTS holding you back when you're moving a preamp in and out and having to remove the components above. That may be true, but to some extent all racking systems have this potential dilemma.
If a reviewer or a distributor/dealer is constantly moving components in and out of the RTS, I suggest leaving an extra few inches between shelves so that it becomes a rare event.
For the end-user who keeps the same components for several years at a time, this should not be much of an issue but it all depends on how much spacing they want between the shelves.
Like many performance-oriented products the RTS is the end result of real world compromises.
Surely I'm not alone here. Take the Tidal subwoofer x-over which must be turned upside down to make config changes.
Better yet, for decades Ferrari was known for its primitive shifters, and whether or not they ever corrected it, it's still a Ferrari and that primitive shifter even became a Ferrari trademark for a time.
-John
With regard to your last question about improvements, I have some new Conduits (cones) of a special material that go through a new patent-pending process (not mine) that make the performance benefits more immediate as well as improved overall.
In addition, there were a few things I took for granted at the last show that will be addressed at this next show, along with a significant discovery that I'm not at liberty to share at the moment but will later. Nevertheless, the combination of all 3 elements makes for very substantial gains.
As I am preparing for this next show I came across the stack of business cards I accumulated from THE Show last January and it looks as though I have your oasis-audio biz card. Did you visit my room? If so, I wish you would have introduced yourself.
-John
Marvel
I had a long chat of PT about the Vekian suite because I can't reproduce Joan Baez at such level of realism in my home. It is not just the human flesh of the vocal but the relationship of the vocal to the surrounding environment. Damn it. It is so cool. This analog domain amp is really something serious stuff. I don't feel like listening to high power solid state amp at all.
PT said his system wasn't performing at where it should be an customer plays the Chie Ayado Live recording awhile back. The high frequency energy was piercing and the audiences at the back sounded like paper puppet without body. And that was the time when he firstly installed the AQ diamond HDMI for a day.
What surprised me is he was able to reproduce the bad sound by tilting the speaker positions just a little bit (both channel). Damn it... Damn it... all the magic was gone. The highs are protruded, and the tonal balance tilted upwards noticeably. But it was only half an inch move. Though I don't remember which direction but this demo was great learning experiences for me.
What he did lately was to put another carpet under the desk area. Noise floor at the back which was already dead quiet probably become more quieter by 1db. Those zigzags further diminished.
Speaker positioning can completely change the verdict, much more so than cables. After-all, the AQ HDMI is excellent in every regards. When we plugged back the Starlight Platinum, I hit the stop button when Joan Baez started singing.
The resolution of this system is.... run out of words to describe.... I can even feel the dynamic of different audience sections. Not just the spatial resolution but the mood and sentiment of the audiences conveyed by the degree of their engagements etc.....
Right out of the box without warm up playing his familiar CDs, he could not help smiling in a controlled manner. 30 minutes later, we sent the Orpheus old combo to 2nd hand dealer in MK.
I told him this is not about a BATTLE OF THE SAME CLASS. It is something else. I believe it will rekindle his interest in his system as he told me he had not turned on his for quite awhile.
我班兄弟想去Marvel兄的音響器械庫見識一下天下名品, 到時要指導下我哋班讀書甚少的小巴司機, 可以賜教小弟嗎?