The complete setup took about 6 hours. We were extremely contended with the result taken into the account of everything is new. A late night audition session with Jlam/Marvel spinning Arpegionne by Maurice Gendron (Live recording) made us felt as if he is resurrected and playing in front of us.
Also, we are absolutely convinced the superb phono capability of the Zanden phono MK3. If you are truly serious about analog, this is the one to die for.
We have not tested the phono session of the Tidal Prescenio yet because it only accept BALANCE signals from the tone arm. We are waiting for the XLR version of the Da Vinci arm before we can evaluate.
For the time being, the whole system just disappears into the recording venue.
Went there the 3rd time 2 nights ago....to hear the newly setup Gabriel turntable together with the new DV cartridge pairing with Zanden phono...we listened to mostly Cello by Gendron, Hoelscher and Safran..my favourite Schubert Cello sonata, Arpeggione...the system is so transparent and unforgivingly revealing that I thought we had all these three cello maestro performers taking turn live in competing who is the best performer for this musical piece. In listening to this system, I can understand more about why people said music can be very involving and there are implications in the music played by the performer through the touchings and skills....Gabriel setup one Day-1 is already very top notch in comparing to all other LP setup that I have heard in the past...my salute to our always trusted master: Chik sir !!
This will become Marvel's second home in the future with the permission of Jlam/PT as I have a record of causing disturbance and interference to hi-end gears.... probably my magnetic field is too strong...
PT, I was surprised nobody points out your speaker positioning of the Sunray was wrong. I am glad it really rocks now after fixing it. Speaker positioning is not really trial and error. The distance between the bass port of the Sunray and the back wall was about 1.5M before I visited you. That means, the bass waves first traveled 1.5M to hit the back wall first before returning another 1.5M. That is a total of 3M and the phase shift occurs here.
Now the sound of speed is approximately 343 meter per second. 343/3 = 110hz. You have cancelation exactly at 110hz, 55hz, and 22.5hz. No wonder the bass is not there. No matter what you change will not get those back. Changing cables are merely shifting the perception of tonality. Such speaker design is extremely critical on speaker positioning, much more demanding than the horny route. 110hz is exacly the peak frequency of a kick drum which there was none before the new position.
Now, that's a pair of Sunray. If you sell another pair to rich mainland Chinese yesterday, you should be real thankful of my technical assistance. Criticising is easy but solving the problem requires real balls.
Have they ever experienced something like this? I doubt it. 99% is still in the area of enjoying distortion. Jesus Christ, I should have come earlier.
Go and fix the back wall structure asap behind the stupid fish tank. It shouldn't be there. Otherwise, your room acoustics is considered to be very good. Don't bother the curtain on the left hand side if you can't get the speaker positioning right. Those are not important. Some like it deader and some like it brighter.
Thank you very much. I felt very small after you left. There is no argument because this is physics. Indeed, the mainland Chinese customer yesterday was extremely impressed by the entire Tidal system.
According to your formula,if now the speakers have been moved near to the rear wall and it is 0.75m away, according to the calculation that you have give, the 'netting off effect' would occur at 343/1.5, around 220hz, would it also mean it would also net off at 110hz, 55hz, 22hz??? I guess in this case the net off at 110hz would be less detrimental than the first order net off in the first case...is it true?
My previous comments to PT is that putting the Gabriel in the middle would also affect the image formations at the middle as it is like putting a big diffusor in the middle...do you agree? In an ideal listening area, the middle should be left blank, at least in the listening level.
That's why Horn speaker has its merit because shoots out the sound directly without this trade off though the trade-offs eventually appears in other areas. There is no perfect world.
Marvel, uou are right. But that's the second order, much less detrimental. And that is also a function of the room acoustics and the fundamentals of the electronics. In PT's room, the imperfection is clearly in the mid bass area. We know it is neither the problem of speakers nor the electronics. Don't blame the cables unless we are sure of all the fundamentals factor are being taken good care of.
Tell PT to show you on a graph. It is much easier to understand if you see the two sine waves cancels each other at respective nodes.
Actually, Algame users should have the most experience in speaker positioning because the design of it interacts with the rear wall intensively.
Maybe, sir VR, can chip in his experiences...
For instance, even in your case of the CDSE, if you close the port hole at the back, you will immediately have more clarity but it demand power and control from your amplifier more because the bass drivers have become less efficient.
Also, PT may need to reposition the speaker again after we dealt with the 2nd room acoustics problem - the wall behind the fish tank. We know there are two rooms inside on left and right. The centre part of the wall is directly coupled to the structural wall. But the area beside the two doors leading into the room has a reonance frequencies around 80hz to 100hz (to my rusty ears), again the bass region. If I knock on these areas, it has much longer decay time than the rest of the walls (I checked all of them). This longer than usual decaying time mingles directly with resonances at 80hz to 100hz. The result is lack of control/lack of attack at the bass region.
The best way to solve it is to make this two resonanting areas physically coupled with the structural wall inside the room by inserting some kind of wood or steel rod to enforce the rigidity. The objective is to shorter the decay time and reduce the resonances. After he has done this, he may have more than usual bass. That is when he has to reposition the speakers again.
The sound is FXCKING crazy now!!!! I called Master Lau to start fixing the wall behind the fish tank early this morning. He was also shocked such small areas of the back wall can affect the bass so much. I am FXCKING happy now!!!!!!!!
Uncle Ray, my hectic schedule kills me slowly. I simply don't have time to explore all the technicalities. Why don't I just simply learn from you here? My life in the past two years was practically on an airplne.
PT's biggest audio mistake in his life is real damn funny for me to read. I like to read stories of failures more than successes. Maybe, I am just a damn asshole. The real fun, you know what, was I thought the sound of confusion whom I had experienced, is already way better than many shits out there. That is a real challenge....."the sound of confusion" - what a good name PT has given to his misdeeds.
Comments
Also, we are absolutely convinced the superb phono capability of the Zanden phono MK3. If you are truly serious about analog, this is the one to die for.
We have not tested the phono session of the Tidal Prescenio yet because it only accept BALANCE signals from the tone arm. We are waiting for the XLR version of the Da Vinci arm before we can evaluate.
For the time being, the whole system just disappears into the recording venue.
This will become Marvel's second home in the future with the permission of Jlam/PT as I have a record of causing disturbance and interference to hi-end gears.... probably my magnetic field is too strong...
Marvel
Now the sound of speed is approximately 343 meter per second. 343/3 = 110hz. You have cancelation exactly at 110hz, 55hz, and 22.5hz. No wonder the bass is not there. No matter what you change will not get those back. Changing cables are merely shifting the perception of tonality. Such speaker design is extremely critical on speaker positioning, much more demanding than the horny route. 110hz is exacly the peak frequency of a kick drum which there was none before the new position.
Now, that's a pair of Sunray. If you sell another pair to rich mainland Chinese yesterday, you should be real thankful of my technical assistance. Criticising is easy but solving the problem requires real balls.
Have they ever experienced something like this? I doubt it. 99% is still in the area of enjoying distortion. Jesus Christ, I should have come earlier.
Go and fix the back wall structure asap behind the stupid fish tank. It shouldn't be there. Otherwise, your room acoustics is considered to be very good. Don't bother the curtain on the left hand side if you can't get the speaker positioning right. Those are not important. Some like it deader and some like it brighter.
According to your formula,if now the speakers have been moved near to the rear wall and it is 0.75m away, according to the calculation that you have give, the 'netting off effect' would occur at 343/1.5, around 220hz, would it also mean it would also net off at 110hz, 55hz, 22hz??? I guess in this case the net off at 110hz would be less detrimental than the first order net off in the first case...is it true?
My previous comments to PT is that putting the Gabriel in the middle would also affect the image formations at the middle as it is like putting a big diffusor in the middle...do you agree? In an ideal listening area, the middle should be left blank, at least in the listening level.
Hope you can share more with us...
Marvel
Marvel, uou are right. But that's the second order, much less detrimental. And that is also a function of the room acoustics and the fundamentals of the electronics. In PT's room, the imperfection is clearly in the mid bass area. We know it is neither the problem of speakers nor the electronics. Don't blame the cables unless we are sure of all the fundamentals factor are being taken good care of.
Tell PT to show you on a graph. It is much easier to understand if you see the two sine waves cancels each other at respective nodes.
Actually, Algame users should have the most experience in speaker positioning because the design of it interacts with the rear wall intensively.
Maybe, sir VR, can chip in his experiences...
For instance, even in your case of the CDSE, if you close the port hole at the back, you will immediately have more clarity but it demand power and control from your amplifier more because the bass drivers have become less efficient.
The best way to solve it is to make this two resonanting areas physically coupled with the structural wall inside the room by inserting some kind of wood or steel rod to enforce the rigidity. The objective is to shorter the decay time and reduce the resonances. After he has done this, he may have more than usual bass. That is when he has to reposition the speakers again.
Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PT's biggest audio mistake in his life is real damn funny for me to read. I like to read stories of failures more than successes. Maybe, I am just a damn asshole. The real fun, you know what, was I thought the sound of confusion whom I had experienced, is already way better than many shits out there. That is a real challenge....."the sound of confusion" - what a good name PT has given to his misdeeds.