I appreciate frankness. If you are willing to confess confusion, your subsequent success is guaranteed. I may be labeled as some sort of expert but the truth is likely you will find my system sounds like shit. Hold on, we don't have to be Maradona in order to judge who is good and bad on the field. Anyway, here are some tips: (if they confuse you further, tell JLam to deleter this post to avoid greater damage.)
1. Your room acoustics has no problem, much better than most out there. Don't waste time on this front. There will always be noises here and there. Some would like the curtain closed on the right hand side; some'd like the opposite. Focus on the listenig position first.
2. Assuming you connected everything correctly, please spend a few hours on the positioning of speakers. You need a partner that is not just a classical music lovers but more of a generalist. You need someone whose listening preference must consists a wide range of different music preferably inclusive of "world music" with lightning tempo/rhythm with tremendous speed at all frequency.
Don't always use piano, violin and Cello as reference because subjective preference on tonality (especially the wooden tone is always subjective) will likely compromise speed/transients requirement. You can elevate classical music as a category but don't use them solely. I tell you why later. He or she should play a reaosnably loud level at home with at least 7 to 10 feet away from the speaker.
3. If you feel the speaker positoning is right after testing different genre of music, you can start adjusting the active crossover - mostly to your own listening preferences. If you feel everything is in balance, then don't touch it. There will always be someone who wants more bass and vice versa. Some will always like bigger imaging (means more presence to some.) Some will like exact pinpoint image to the extend you can touch the lips of the singer etc.... Trust yourself. Don't think of it as a compensator first unless you are very sure of specific room acoustic deficiency.
4. Remove the Gabriel from the center. Yes, if LP is too complicated and time consuming, begin with CD to get the basic right first.
Do it slowly. Relax. You are doing great job already. There is no competition here. It is you who have created this space to stimulate so much constructive discussions with a global reputation.
I am abt to change camp. My music preference is opera, some symphonies and jazz (blues). I was pretty impressed by the vocal coming from the monster looking Cessaro. At the same time, the same recording played on the Sunray is more complete. The relationship between the recording venue and the artists are ghostly in proportion. The harmonic decays of all frequencies integrates naturally with the acoustics venue. It is the entirety that draws me into the music. For Cessaro, it is mainly the vocal that draws all my attention. That is not to say the orchestra behind is not there but the portrait of the acoustic is not as well defined as the Sunray.
Am I describing expereinces similar to yours? I listened to the Cessaro without the lower mid range horn. For the Tidal, I listened to it when PT screwed up the crossover. I am about to listen both system again next month.
I do know that you have bias on Tidal. What's you take on these attributes?
My confusion continues to deepen. DSo, Charles and Mr. Zanden were not happy with the performance until the decision to move the crossover frequency from 50hz to 70hz with +1db gain on the bass volume.
This morning - the interesting observation is from the son of Marvel - Marcus who commented why the lower mid bass lacks resolution (refers to the 玉置浩二 recording). When I reversed everything back to 50hz with no gain in bass volume, he told his father it is clearly better.
After I described to Marvel what happened last night alongside various opinions expressed by them, he clearly felt the Gabriel with the craze rack located right at the center of the side-firing woofers of the Sunray diffuses the lower mid bass too much. He describes to me the mid-range is forward due to double diffusion (from those Tidal diffusors, and then Gabriel diffuses again). When the mid-range is forward and lower mid bass diffused too much, the bass becomes weak and slow. As a result, what they listened last night was correct but the way of compensation was achieved by adjusting the crossover at the expense of lower mid bass resolution.
From a logical standpoint, the only way I can verify is to remove the Gabriel and Craze rack completely from the center position.
And I did this morning. The tightness of voice spotted by DSo is completely gone and the soundstage is now filled, not broken. I am sweating now..... I will start all over again..
That means I had committed two major mistakes ever since Jun: 1. Crossover 2. Fatal acoustic dislocation by placing the turntable right at the heart defeating the whole purpose of the bass modules side firing concept.
Start all over again.
Anyway, thank you for all the comments that help me to resolved the issue analytically.
I am still listening now at the showroom after the disconnection of the turntable alongside relocation of the craze2 rack to another position for the time being. I re-adjusted the crossover frequency back to 50hz.
The SRA Ohio board underneath the Impact Mono driving the Bass modules are not original - meaning they were designed for other component instead of the impact amp. The SRA boards for Impact Mono Block will not arrive for another two weeks. Many parameters still need to be fine-tuned. But I really feel the development path is really immense now.
It is more of building a second system in my new house. Also, I am alone holding the fortress. Guys like Charles using big power driving the Horning should have a lot to say and share but he never really shows up. The german camp has a lot more fun, seemingly.
But you the big Uncle always has a lot to say and I like this attitude very much. Daring to say real opinion regardless of how others look at you is my way of life. That's beef and balls. Got me?
I had been doing something secretly over the past two months. I ain't share this with no one. What I did is, through some connections here, got a pair of "the controversial amp" with the matching pre to drive the algame. I want to understand why brothers in HK love big power so much to drive high efficiency speakers. It aint logic to me but I'd love give it a try.
Time quickly flies. I now understand Asian colorations and the taste of HK brothers with a provocative answer. That's the real reason behind me for such a change.
I went to the Tidal room on past Tuesday. Because PT knew that I love rock/pop music, he first put in the CD (Wine Red no Kokoro) of Tamaki Koji (玉置浩二) into the Orpheus Signature CD drive which is a common reference CD for a lot of Anzenchitai fans. We first listen to track #2 (ワインレッドの心), I was immediately impressed by the absolute dynamics and imaging of all voice and components in the music reproduction. However, we feel that there is a very thin layer of transparent plastic wrap that sheds the familiar voice of 玉置浩二 a bit. At that time, one socket of Spartan and one socket of Troy both shared the same electrical wall outlet. Then PT put all sockets of Spartan and Troy into individual wall outlets and restart over the same track. I felt that the transparent plastic wrap was removed and that玉置浩二 sounded like singing in front of us in the studio!! Of course, this crazy improvement might have been caused by the warm up of the crazy setups.
We kept on listening to the next track, Friend, when 玉置浩二 is singing the last few words, “Friend”, I can actually feel the tension/vibration of his vocal cord from the Tidal suite (I never experienced that before in any system including different horns, Horning, smaller Tidal speakers, etc). Afterwards, we played the CD of Norah Jones (Fell Like Home), wow, the reality of her voices was fully reproduced by the crazy system as I feel the acoustic energy generated from her vocal during the recording. However, in Track #7, “Turn me on”, I feel that Norah’s voices are punching into my heart in certain verses (I think that it can be noticed as this song is different in style from other one). Also, we feel that the voices of 玉置浩二 might become a little bit too rough (also the a little bit too energetic) for singing certain softer passages in ‘Friend”. Then PT adjusted the低音音量 from +2db to +1db. We immediately feel that the voices of both玉置浩二 and Norah Jones became absolutely “real”. To be frank, I never experienced such a “real” vocal reproduction in any system which I have heard before and never expect a Hi Fi system can achieve this. The mighty power of this nearly perfect tuned Tidal system was realized when we played Jacky Cheung’s 2nd Album (1986 遙遠的她), I never heard such a beautiful and thorough reproduction of this relative older album. The system just brought back the younger Jacky Cheung from 24 years ago to our present time, I was very touched by the 80’s sound coming with full dynamics, soul and imaging. What a wonder!!
I remember maybe a year back when PT told me his dream was to create the best possible listening environment. So like all AE regulars, I've been religiously reading all of the kudos and praises and suggestions for improvement and lapping up the photos that are posted each time someone visits the studio. I was going to be in Hong Kong for business last week, I called PT up and I made a date (with destiny) on Monday.
The first thing that will strike ANYONE who visits the AE studio is where its located. I'm not going to let the cat out of the bag, but all I can say is that its location is ... different and unexpected. Definitely a refreshing change from all the 'high-end audiophile' stores I've visited over the last few decades.
The second thing you will notice - or maybe feel - is how pleasing and peaceful everything is in the studio. From the lions at the entrace, to the cladding on the ceilings and walls, to the orange colour of the furniture, to the James Bond like control panel, to the little odds and ends that fill the studio (B&O flute clock, Leica camera ...), and of course the full Tidal system sitting patiently at one end. And what a system it is!
The new Orphues Transport with the Vekian DAC with the Tidal Precensio preamp driving 4 Impac monoblocs and a Tidal xover to the mighty Sunray. What a GLORIOUS site to behold!. PT wanted to play something immediately, but even when the studio was quiet, it was very NICE to be in. The feeling was of calmness, akin to being in a temple.
I don't want to get into the specifics of the music. A lot of other more experienced folks on this forum have described the sound in detail. I did however play many tracks from a whole set of CDs I brought from Singapore - Rock, Pop, Electronica, World, Folk, Bluegrass. For me a system I invest in needs to be multi-talented and faceted. It needs to play ALL types of music well. Needless to say, the sound was scaringly transparent and absolutely engaging. So engaging that I was immediately lost in the music. A lot of the music I was also playing were pretty complex rock and pop live tracks, that I've seen many systems costing probably double what the Tidal system cost fail miserably at.
How much of the sound was the studio, and how much was the Tidal system? Frankly I'm not qualified to determine that. BUT, I've been in studios that have cost double as much, with systems costing triple as much - sounding only half as good as what I heard last Monday. This is definitely a labour of love. The studio is a reflection on PT. It is also a continuous work in progress ... as all us audiophiles know...(we are never satisfied - yes?)
AE has reached another pinnacle. It is so wonderful that each time I visit PT in Hong Kong, there is something new on his menu that he wants me to try. And each time I bite into an AE dish, I am introduced to new and exotic flavours. PT is the chef that combines all the different dishes into a great meal! The dishes used to be served at home. Nice, but it did come with its own set of enviromental challenges. Now the Chef has his new restaurant to serve his dishes!
Watch out World!
Frankly, it took quite a hard time for me to understand why PT was so upset previously. Perhaps I am the lucky one after PT solved all the problems. And I have to concur with Katongkid that this Tidal suite is absolutely state of the art.
I am a frequent concert goer. I spend at least 3 evenings every month attending various kind of live concerts. Mostly classical, and sometimes I will go for guitar/vocal performance too. I am neither the type who can say the high pitch notes of the piano is not perfect nor do I have the credential to say bass is not enough given my small listening environment.
This system let me just stick to the nice sofa and listen for an hour without analyzing. It is the entirety that draws my mind. The system needs absolute transparency from top to bottom for such level of reproduction. I don't feel I am listening to solid state, and don't feel I am listening to tube either. This is amazing.
If one is looking for particular favor from this system, they will not get it. But that does not mean it is a monitoring system for engineer. Actually, far from it because the proportion of each instruments with respect to the acoustic space revealed by this system is second to none. This I can say confidently I do know well because due to the frequency of me and my wife going to concert.
I still reckon coloration is nice. If one ever needs to know the truth (pretending if they ever exist given the complex chain in the recording process), this maybe the ultimate one. The way I see it is also a spirit - if someone knows there must be a truth somewhere and assumes objective knowledge allows us to judge a reasonable degree of truthfulness - such spirit should be complimented. The easy way is to assume truth does not exist, and make our own sound to pleasue us, which is the majority is doing. I have no problem with that as I enjoy some other system also very much.
But this one is just peculiar, special and really moves me from some of the recordings that I listened over in the past 2 decades. Is it the truth? I don't care it anymore.
Comments
I appreciate frankness. If you are willing to confess confusion, your subsequent success is guaranteed. I may be labeled as some sort of expert but the truth is likely you will find my system sounds like shit. Hold on, we don't have to be Maradona in order to judge who is good and bad on the field. Anyway, here are some tips: (if they confuse you further, tell JLam to deleter this post to avoid greater damage.)
1. Your room acoustics has no problem, much better than most out there. Don't waste time on this front. There will always be noises here and there. Some would like the curtain closed on the right hand side; some'd like the opposite. Focus on the listenig position first.
2. Assuming you connected everything correctly, please spend a few hours on the positioning of speakers. You need a partner that is not just a classical music lovers but more of a generalist. You need someone whose listening preference must consists a wide range of different music preferably inclusive of "world music" with lightning tempo/rhythm with tremendous speed at all frequency.
Don't always use piano, violin and Cello as reference because subjective preference on tonality (especially the wooden tone is always subjective) will likely compromise speed/transients requirement. You can elevate classical music as a category but don't use them solely. I tell you why later. He or she should play a reaosnably loud level at home with at least 7 to 10 feet away from the speaker.
3. If you feel the speaker positoning is right after testing different genre of music, you can start adjusting the active crossover - mostly to your own listening preferences. If you feel everything is in balance, then don't touch it. There will always be someone who wants more bass and vice versa. Some will always like bigger imaging (means more presence to some.) Some will like exact pinpoint image to the extend you can touch the lips of the singer etc.... Trust yourself. Don't think of it as a compensator first unless you are very sure of specific room acoustic deficiency.
4. Remove the Gabriel from the center. Yes, if LP is too complicated and time consuming, begin with CD to get the basic right first.
Do it slowly. Relax. You are doing great job already. There is no competition here. It is you who have created this space to stimulate so much constructive discussions with a global reputation.
I am abt to change camp. My music preference is opera, some symphonies and jazz (blues). I was pretty impressed by the vocal coming from the monster looking Cessaro. At the same time, the same recording played on the Sunray is more complete. The relationship between the recording venue and the artists are ghostly in proportion. The harmonic decays of all frequencies integrates naturally with the acoustics venue. It is the entirety that draws me into the music. For Cessaro, it is mainly the vocal that draws all my attention. That is not to say the orchestra behind is not there but the portrait of the acoustic is not as well defined as the Sunray.
Am I describing expereinces similar to yours? I listened to the Cessaro without the lower mid range horn. For the Tidal, I listened to it when PT screwed up the crossover. I am about to listen both system again next month.
I do know that you have bias on Tidal. What's you take on these attributes?
My confusion continues to deepen. DSo, Charles and Mr. Zanden were not happy with the performance until the decision to move the crossover frequency from 50hz to 70hz with +1db gain on the bass volume.
This morning - the interesting observation is from the son of Marvel - Marcus who commented why the lower mid bass lacks resolution (refers to the 玉置浩二 recording). When I reversed everything back to 50hz with no gain in bass volume, he told his father it is clearly better.
After I described to Marvel what happened last night alongside various opinions expressed by them, he clearly felt the Gabriel with the craze rack located right at the center of the side-firing woofers of the Sunray diffuses the lower mid bass too much. He describes to me the mid-range is forward due to double diffusion (from those Tidal diffusors, and then Gabriel diffuses again). When the mid-range is forward and lower mid bass diffused too much, the bass becomes weak and slow. As a result, what they listened last night was correct but the way of compensation was achieved by adjusting the crossover at the expense of lower mid bass resolution.
From a logical standpoint, the only way I can verify is to remove the Gabriel and Craze rack completely from the center position.
And I did this morning. The tightness of voice spotted by DSo is completely gone and the soundstage is now filled, not broken. I am sweating now..... I will start all over again..
That means I had committed two major mistakes ever since Jun: 1. Crossover 2. Fatal acoustic dislocation by placing the turntable right at the heart defeating the whole purpose of the bass modules side firing concept.
Start all over again.
Anyway, thank you for all the comments that help me to resolved the issue analytically.
To be continued.....
But you the big Uncle always has a lot to say and I like this attitude very much. Daring to say real opinion regardless of how others look at you is my way of life. That's beef and balls. Got me?
I had been doing something secretly over the past two months. I ain't share this with no one. What I did is, through some connections here, got a pair of "the controversial amp" with the matching pre to drive the algame. I want to understand why brothers in HK love big power so much to drive high efficiency speakers. It aint logic to me but I'd love give it a try.
Time quickly flies. I now understand Asian colorations and the taste of HK brothers with a provocative answer. That's the real reason behind me for such a change.
I went to the Tidal room on past Tuesday. Because PT knew that I love rock/pop music, he first put in the CD (Wine Red no Kokoro) of Tamaki Koji (玉置浩二) into the Orpheus Signature CD drive which is a common reference CD for a lot of Anzenchitai fans. We first listen to track #2 (ワインレッドの心), I was immediately impressed by the absolute dynamics and imaging of all voice and components in the music reproduction. However, we feel that there is a very thin layer of transparent plastic wrap that sheds the familiar voice of 玉置浩二 a bit. At that time, one socket of Spartan and one socket of Troy both shared the same electrical wall outlet. Then PT put all sockets of Spartan and Troy into individual wall outlets and restart over the same track. I felt that the transparent plastic wrap was removed and that玉置浩二 sounded like singing in front of us in the studio!! Of course, this crazy improvement might have been caused by the warm up of the crazy setups.
We kept on listening to the next track, Friend, when 玉置浩二 is singing the last few words, “Friend”, I can actually feel the tension/vibration of his vocal cord from the Tidal suite (I never experienced that before in any system including different horns, Horning, smaller Tidal speakers, etc). Afterwards, we played the CD of Norah Jones (Fell Like Home), wow, the reality of her voices was fully reproduced by the crazy system as I feel the acoustic energy generated from her vocal during the recording. However, in Track #7, “Turn me on”, I feel that Norah’s voices are punching into my heart in certain verses (I think that it can be noticed as this song is different in style from other one). Also, we feel that the voices of 玉置浩二 might become a little bit too rough (also the a little bit too energetic) for singing certain softer passages in ‘Friend”. Then PT adjusted the低音音量 from +2db to +1db. We immediately feel that the voices of both玉置浩二 and Norah Jones became absolutely “real”. To be frank, I never experienced such a “real” vocal reproduction in any system which I have heard before and never expect a Hi Fi system can achieve this. The mighty power of this nearly perfect tuned Tidal system was realized when we played Jacky Cheung’s 2nd Album (1986 遙遠的她), I never heard such a beautiful and thorough reproduction of this relative older album. The system just brought back the younger Jacky Cheung from 24 years ago to our present time, I was very touched by the 80’s sound coming with full dynamics, soul and imaging. What a wonder!!
牛奶仔
I'm attending the Anzen Chitai reunion concert late October at the Singapore Indoor Stadium
Also visited AE's new blow-your-mind studio on Monday. Will write a review sometime this weekend.
I would love to learn your view on the Tidal suite.
In particular, how the Sunray is different from your excellent Contriva Diacera driven by the crazy Tidal monoblocks?
Thanks.
Milky Boyz
The first thing that will strike ANYONE who visits the AE studio is where its located. I'm not going to let the cat out of the bag, but all I can say is that its location is ... different and unexpected. Definitely a refreshing change from all the 'high-end audiophile' stores I've visited over the last few decades.
The second thing you will notice - or maybe feel - is how pleasing and peaceful everything is in the studio. From the lions at the entrace, to the cladding on the ceilings and walls, to the orange colour of the furniture, to the James Bond like control panel, to the little odds and ends that fill the studio (B&O flute clock, Leica camera ...), and of course the full Tidal system sitting patiently at one end. And what a system it is!
The new Orphues Transport with the Vekian DAC with the Tidal Precensio preamp driving 4 Impac monoblocs and a Tidal xover to the mighty Sunray. What a GLORIOUS site to behold!. PT wanted to play something immediately, but even when the studio was quiet, it was very NICE to be in. The feeling was of calmness, akin to being in a temple.
I don't want to get into the specifics of the music. A lot of other more experienced folks on this forum have described the sound in detail. I did however play many tracks from a whole set of CDs I brought from Singapore - Rock, Pop, Electronica, World, Folk, Bluegrass. For me a system I invest in needs to be multi-talented and faceted. It needs to play ALL types of music well. Needless to say, the sound was scaringly transparent and absolutely engaging. So engaging that I was immediately lost in the music. A lot of the music I was also playing were pretty complex rock and pop live tracks, that I've seen many systems costing probably double what the Tidal system cost fail miserably at.
How much of the sound was the studio, and how much was the Tidal system? Frankly I'm not qualified to determine that. BUT, I've been in studios that have cost double as much, with systems costing triple as much - sounding only half as good as what I heard last Monday. This is definitely a labour of love. The studio is a reflection on PT. It is also a continuous work in progress ... as all us audiophiles know...(we are never satisfied - yes?)
AE has reached another pinnacle. It is so wonderful that each time I visit PT in Hong Kong, there is something new on his menu that he wants me to try. And each time I bite into an AE dish, I am introduced to new and exotic flavours. PT is the chef that combines all the different dishes into a great meal! The dishes used to be served at home. Nice, but it did come with its own set of enviromental challenges. Now the Chef has his new restaurant to serve his dishes!
Watch out World!
I am a frequent concert goer. I spend at least 3 evenings every month attending various kind of live concerts. Mostly classical, and sometimes I will go for guitar/vocal performance too. I am neither the type who can say the high pitch notes of the piano is not perfect nor do I have the credential to say bass is not enough given my small listening environment.
This system let me just stick to the nice sofa and listen for an hour without analyzing. It is the entirety that draws my mind. The system needs absolute transparency from top to bottom for such level of reproduction. I don't feel I am listening to solid state, and don't feel I am listening to tube either. This is amazing.
If one is looking for particular favor from this system, they will not get it. But that does not mean it is a monitoring system for engineer. Actually, far from it because the proportion of each instruments with respect to the acoustic space revealed by this system is second to none. This I can say confidently I do know well because due to the frequency of me and my wife going to concert.
I still reckon coloration is nice. If one ever needs to know the truth (pretending if they ever exist given the complex chain in the recording process), this maybe the ultimate one. The way I see it is also a spirit - if someone knows there must be a truth somewhere and assumes objective knowledge allows us to judge a reasonable degree of truthfulness - such spirit should be complimented. The easy way is to assume truth does not exist, and make our own sound to pleasue us, which is the majority is doing. I have no problem with that as I enjoy some other system also very much.
But this one is just peculiar, special and really moves me from some of the recordings that I listened over in the past 2 decades. Is it the truth? I don't care it anymore.