I just read this thread of you whom disappeared for a long while. It's great to have a dedicated listening room no matter what size is it. I was told by Jlam that you were jamming everything into one Troy. What the hack are you doing to serve the expensive Virtu amplification chain? High efficiency means higher amplifying factor for the noises too. Am I correct?
And the interesting facts from JLam shows none of the Horn users are using two Troys. They jam everything into one Troy, which is still very good but never realize all those even more invisible "cross-talking noises". On the contrary, the so called conventional camp people all uses two Troy at least. I think there must be something wrong with this distribution.
Human behavior is interesting. It shows irrationality presents all the time. It may be related to so called "consumerism". Spend money on something new to satisfy curiosity feels better buying the same thing for improvement.
Are we living in a sane world? JLam, thanks for the facts. I like to study human behavior a lot.
I was about to say congratulation to the ownership of Agoria. It isn't a hard decision afterall. We all know you well. You always like a big bite. It is certainly interesting to see conventional speaker camp in this community uses 2 Troys. Logically speaking as you suggest should be the other way round.
What I would like to share here is about Professor Durand's view on imaging and localization of objects. And he got a very interesting point. He said in a live setting, it matters to him very much about the location of the performer. Because he says if he finds the string/wind session was performing extradonarily, his mind will fixate more on that particular session. That moves on to implicate accurate reproduction of location is not just a "Hi Fi" criteria. To the trained ears like himself who is a classical composer knowing at least how to play 3 musical instruments, the location matters very much. We thus can't say we cannot detect location in a live concert. We can't because we may not know how to.
This is an interesting idea which I can't argue because I am not trained professionally in the music field.
Your dry sense of humour has always been a revelation in this Forum. Finally, I dare to respond with my 2 cents.
From the conventional camp, I possess 2 Troys aiming at "genuine improvement". The challenge to combat against all kinds of noises has been a painstaking odyssey but I enjoy much more of my favourite music in return.
Mr DV's setup shares something in common with mine. While he holds on to his nostalgic Studer CD player, I treasure my pair of Venture L'excellence II speakers as much as I brought them home some 5 years ago.
The reason why I still hold on to them is simple: It delivers with poise and composure for all the upgrades I have made over the last 5 years. PT is puzzled by my stubborness as I repreatedly claiming that the Venture do possess something unique which I cannot find in Tidal & Cessaro. I certainly will visit AE1 and looking forward to another mind boggling expedition with Agoria!
PT & JLam certainly know our consumption criteria - only groundbreaking innovation, like the Dalby lp stablizer, can survive. What makes this community interesting is that we as audio gladiators, against all odds, are escalating our endless pursuit of individual uncharted zone.
Human behaviour is all too complicated. Science is just part of our decision in purchasing a new gear. What I love most is the man behind the machine, there must be some traces to follow from the original thought to the ultimate solution. It is logic that governs the outcome afterall.
Congratulations on your acquisition of Agoria! You banker never puts a foot wrong (and this is why we need wealth management)!
By the way, will you choose Agoria ahead of Dalby lp stablizer as Product of 2012?
Good to know new fellow speaks up. I know there are plenty of silent readers out there. Please do vocal as much as you can. Over the course of the last few years parking with the AE philosophy, my "audio" life has changed for the betterment permanently. The greatest product ever introduced by AE1, in my eyes, is the TROY by Tripoint. Ever since the connection of the Troy to the system, I can always detect ground noises everywhere in other systems. That put me down immediately. The latest version of Troy is even more quieter than before after a thorough comparison. The addition of the 2nd Troy is a must move. The longevity of the Troy will sustain and perpetuate. I guess we belong to the smart group.
I am never a fan of horn for one reason - "disintegration". The integration is not good enough for me to reach for musicality until the arrival of the Chopin. And that is a lovely pair of speakers with tremendous speed and excellent integration from top to bottom. And the subwoofer complements it so well that I had spent the last 6 months purely listening to the Cessaro system.
If the speakers are not up to the standard, all electronics upstream are undermined. We all listen differently. But integration to my ears is the most important pre-requisite to musicality. Dynamical sound without perfect integration is both fun and sensational. I understand and concur.
In the past century, do we ever have any innovations in the transducer domain? Yes, maybe a few drivers such as the Lowther, TAD4001. Or maybe those 360 degree speakers for the girls' party, and those little monitors hold on by the vanguards. And the market constantly sees new advances in material sciences, and so what is the fucking big deal here?
It is about management. Who has the skill set to make a speaker that sound as though a whole musical picture from top to bottom is presented as an uncut fabric? The Sunray gave us a very good idea. Mr. Zanden used to critize the absence of musicality from the super system in the past 2 years. But even he changed view last Saturday. It took PT almost 2 years to get everything right.
Then the Agoria landed.....surpassing Sunray (without subwoofer) on the spot. And the integration on all axis (x, y and z) can only be experienced by yourself. Mate, that is not easy. We all know the effort and financial resources put forth in AE1 by Jlam and PT.
With the Agoria, the difference of testing the Dalby weight on the NVS is even more starking than before. This is my long answer to your question. Agoria is a game changer. The Telos is a game changer. The Dalby weight is also a game changer in the respective field of record weight. Forget about the Harmonix, it is not in the major league. Without the speakers interface, I won't know what is the maximum potential of other game changers upstream.
Jorn is the guy who is behind the Agoria project. Why the name agoria? Go and google it. Then let's discuss again.
The Agoria is a fucking big deal.
VR
Let's go watch another channel. Marvel bro is stealing the show again.
When it comes to speakers, AE never take chances. Professor Strauss is an amazing genius in transducer design and his reference monitor beat all other reference monitor in SONY STUDIO, Japan in a blind test attended all famous golden ears and recording engineers. This is not a marketing gimmick but facts. This happened more than 10 years ago.
And this speakers is made for AE exclusively. We listened to it two years ago at the House of Da Vinci at Bern during the prototype development of the Virtu preamp/power-amp. Professor Strauss later on also evaluated all Virtu class electronics using this state of the art reference HORN monitor and is completely taken aback by the musicality and precision of the Virtu electronics. Great mind obviously think alike.
They will soon arrive Hong Kong. I have been waiting for them for 2 years.
Every parameter is well thought including acoustics, listening distance, angle of dispersion and most important of all - coherence without interruption. And there is no need for a subwoofer. You need great amplifiers to exert great control on the 16 inch bass and yet refined enough to feed the horn throat
Professor Strauss is an expert in acoustic engineering and he is also well versed in music history. I read an academic paper by him concerning the acoustic behavior of concert halls in Vienna and how it affects the composition style of classical composer. We are talking serious stuff here.
There is a lot of knowledge required behind the design of a speaker to get everything right fundamentally. There are many objectivities before one can reach the stage of tuning by ears. Even then, there are enough objectivities behind tuning by ears.
Drivers quality of the Stauss are top of the top and can't be sourced anywhere because the spec is completely in compliance with Strauss' stringent design parameters.
After all, how can you beat all other reference monitors in SONY studio?
Interesting. It is a 2-way Horn system. We can't see either the mid range driver or the tweeter. Coherence and imaging must be outstanding. The 15" bass driver also guranatees scale of the bottom end. I can imagine it will be quite an experience of this speaker to be driven by Da Vinci's Virtu electronics. The 15" bass drivers require power and control to tame well.
When will this speakers land in HK? Interesting to see a 2-way horn monitor is driven by levinson electronics. I never subscribe that HORN must be matched with tubes. But a majority of the older generation audiophiles here was already posioned with "musicality" to their favor for many years. Muscality is often accompanied with weak control, muddy definition and unintended softness, and often cool for restricted type of music. There is no right or wrong to anyone's preferences. But the more I understand the philosophy in this field, the more I can't accept righting the wrong, or wrong the right. Sometimes, I wonder am I the stupid ass all the time?
I recommend arrogant audiohphiles should read the work of "Rene Descartes" - the French philosopher. When we are listening in the room to the system, we are always physically sitting in the same room. It is only the senses that bring one into the so called "concert hall", "recording venue" or any description of "live". If we let senses take complete control in this hobby, then we run into a big contradiction against the very idea of "high fidelity" defined by adequate objective criteria. But people then would argue high fidelity means "amusical", it is unlike the "real thing". But why is this the case? Can we bring in an entire orchestra into a room of 400sq feet? Physically impossible but sometimes our senses let us imagine we are now sitting in the middle section of a concert hall. That's fine but after all - this is an illusion. Our mind so know that this is an illusion achieved by the invention of hi fidelity stereo recording.
Then the musicality guys say locations are not so clear in a live setting and thus clear imaging and location are not right to their ears. Then, they blur the resolution of the system intentionally by downgrading the cables or whatever gadgets. More often than not, most people use expensive cables do not guarnatee satisfactory result either and hence two camps are pointing fingers to each other. Oh my God, everyone loses the sight of the fucking big picture! Isn't it?
Go back to the original work of Descartes. My listening senses take me to Utopia sometime but my mind at some point reminds me of the reality.
I would say your sharing is to discuss the attitude to listening to music. The main reason why I am so drawn into music is because it brings me out of the high pressure reality. This is exactly quite a contradiction to our burning desire to strive for the ultimate realism in music playback.
I certainly agree with you on the illusion of having a full orchestra playing within a 400 sq ft space. However, I possess a certain degree of indulgence in "role playing". Whenever I listen to my favorite music, I wish I were Christian Ferras jamming with Karajan, or playing alongside Kurt Cobain in the legendary MTV Unplugged, or I were John Squire playing ferocious psychedelic guitar for the Stone Roses. The "What if" fantasy is somhow a charm in my listening pleasure. Maybe it is because I am working in the field of creativity, such prescription of imagination may be indispensible to spur me on.
A recording would never be a reflection of reality. It is a calculated act to fulfill certain criteria (venue, performer preference, technique, culture and so forth). One can easily distinguish British rock from American rock. I once watched an interesting video about the making of the Nirvana Nevermind album. Butch Vig, the producer, demonstrated how he created the Nirvana sound. Do you know Kurt's vocal in "Come as you are" was actually a dubble tab of Kurt's voice? There have been too many man made elements in sound creation and therefore we never have a chance to listen to the pure sound.
Hence, my humble wish is to behold a system which can bring me music from different generations, instead of a homogeneous hi-fi display.
I recently had a collaboration with Lang Lang. It will be interesting to invite him to my place and ask him how he score my system playing his repetoire.
Hi Fidelity is the means to an end. Without this mean, there is no destination. The destination itself can be an illusion, nothing wrong about it. It can also be a partial reflection of the reality or a mixture of illusion and reality. For me I am always aware of the relationship between myself and the record. And if the "hi fidelity" objectivities are there, it thus allow my senses to develop and take me to an Utopia in mind.
I can allow my senses to develop with an iPOD, why bother goes through all the troubles. Got me? And I like role play a lot too but I always make sure I got the correct costumes on.
Comments
The gain switch was very useful for CD/Digital playback, now I could enjoy every old or new recording. I like this option very very much.
Virtu前和Nifty前怎樣比較? Nifty前已經好靚好靚了.
I just read this thread of you whom disappeared for a long while. It's great to have a dedicated listening room no matter what size is it. I was told by Jlam that you were jamming everything into one Troy. What the hack are you doing to serve the expensive Virtu amplification chain? High efficiency means higher amplifying factor for the noises too. Am I correct?
And the interesting facts from JLam shows none of the Horn users are using two Troys. They jam everything into one Troy, which is still very good but never realize all those even more invisible "cross-talking noises". On the contrary, the so called conventional camp people all uses two Troy at least. I think there must be something wrong with this distribution.
Human behavior is interesting. It shows irrationality presents all the time. It may be related to so called "consumerism". Spend money on something new to satisfy curiosity feels better buying the same thing for improvement.
Are we living in a sane world? JLam, thanks for the facts. I like to study human behavior a lot.
I was about to say congratulation to the ownership of Agoria. It isn't a hard decision afterall. We all know you well. You always like a big bite. It is certainly interesting to see conventional speaker camp in this community uses 2 Troys. Logically speaking as you suggest should be the other way round.
What I would like to share here is about Professor Durand's view on imaging and localization of objects. And he got a very interesting point. He said in a live setting, it matters to him very much about the location of the performer. Because he says if he finds the string/wind session was performing extradonarily, his mind will fixate more on that particular session. That moves on to implicate accurate reproduction of location is not just a "Hi Fi" criteria. To the trained ears like himself who is a classical composer knowing at least how to play 3 musical instruments, the location matters very much. We thus can't say we cannot detect location in a live concert. We can't because we may not know how to.
This is an interesting idea which I can't argue because I am not trained professionally in the music field.
Your dry sense of humour has always been a revelation in this Forum. Finally, I dare to respond with my 2 cents.
From the conventional camp, I possess 2 Troys aiming at "genuine improvement". The challenge to combat against all kinds of noises has been a painstaking odyssey but I enjoy much more of my favourite music in return.
Mr DV's setup shares something in common with mine. While he holds on to his nostalgic Studer CD player, I treasure my pair of Venture L'excellence II speakers as much as I brought them home some 5 years ago.
The reason why I still hold on to them is simple: It delivers with poise and composure for all the upgrades I have made over the last 5 years. PT is puzzled by my stubborness as I repreatedly claiming that the Venture do possess something unique which I cannot find in Tidal & Cessaro. I certainly will visit AE1 and looking forward to another mind boggling expedition with Agoria!
PT & JLam certainly know our consumption criteria - only groundbreaking innovation, like the Dalby lp stablizer, can survive. What makes this community interesting is that we as audio gladiators, against all odds, are escalating our endless pursuit of individual uncharted zone.
Human behaviour is all too complicated. Science is just part of our decision in purchasing a new gear. What I love most is the man behind the machine, there must be some traces to follow from the original thought to the ultimate solution. It is logic that governs the outcome afterall.
Congratulations on your acquisition of Agoria! You banker never puts a foot wrong (and this is why we need wealth management)!
By the way, will you choose Agoria ahead of Dalby lp stablizer as Product of 2012?
Des
Good to know new fellow speaks up. I know there are plenty of silent readers out there. Please do vocal as much as you can. Over the course of the last few years parking with the AE philosophy, my "audio" life has changed for the betterment permanently. The greatest product ever introduced by AE1, in my eyes, is the TROY by Tripoint. Ever since the connection of the Troy to the system, I can always detect ground noises everywhere in other systems. That put me down immediately. The latest version of Troy is even more quieter than before after a thorough comparison. The addition of the 2nd Troy is a must move. The longevity of the Troy will sustain and perpetuate. I guess we belong to the smart group.
I am never a fan of horn for one reason - "disintegration". The integration is not good enough for me to reach for musicality until the arrival of the Chopin. And that is a lovely pair of speakers with tremendous speed and excellent integration from top to bottom. And the subwoofer complements it so well that I had spent the last 6 months purely listening to the Cessaro system.
If the speakers are not up to the standard, all electronics upstream are undermined. We all listen differently. But integration to my ears is the most important pre-requisite to musicality. Dynamical sound without perfect integration is both fun and sensational. I understand and concur.
In the past century, do we ever have any innovations in the transducer domain? Yes, maybe a few drivers such as the Lowther, TAD4001. Or maybe those 360 degree speakers for the girls' party, and those little monitors hold on by the vanguards. And the market constantly sees new advances in material sciences, and so what is the fucking big deal here?
It is about management. Who has the skill set to make a speaker that sound as though a whole musical picture from top to bottom is presented as an uncut fabric? The Sunray gave us a very good idea. Mr. Zanden used to critize the absence of musicality from the super system in the past 2 years. But even he changed view last Saturday. It took PT almost 2 years to get everything right.
Then the Agoria landed.....surpassing Sunray (without subwoofer) on the spot. And the integration on all axis (x, y and z) can only be experienced by yourself. Mate, that is not easy. We all know the effort and financial resources put forth in AE1 by Jlam and PT.
With the Agoria, the difference of testing the Dalby weight on the NVS is even more starking than before. This is my long answer to your question. Agoria is a game changer. The Telos is a game changer. The Dalby weight is also a game changer in the respective field of record weight. Forget about the Harmonix, it is not in the major league. Without the speakers interface, I won't know what is the maximum potential of other game changers upstream.
Jorn is the guy who is behind the Agoria project. Why the name agoria? Go and google it. Then let's discuss again.
The Agoria is a fucking big deal.
VR
Let's go watch another channel. Marvel bro is stealing the show again.
And this speakers is made for AE exclusively. We listened to it two years ago at the House of Da Vinci at Bern during the prototype development of the Virtu preamp/power-amp. Professor Strauss later on also evaluated all Virtu class electronics using this state of the art reference HORN monitor and is completely taken aback by the musicality and precision of the Virtu electronics. Great mind obviously think alike.
They will soon arrive Hong Kong. I have been waiting for them for 2 years.
There is a lot of knowledge required behind the design of a speaker to get everything right fundamentally. There are many objectivities before one can reach the stage of tuning by ears. Even then, there are enough objectivities behind tuning by ears.
Drivers quality of the Stauss are top of the top and can't be sourced anywhere because the spec is completely in compliance with Strauss' stringent design parameters.
After all, how can you beat all other reference monitors in SONY studio?
I recommend arrogant audiohphiles should read the work of "Rene Descartes" - the French philosopher. When we are listening in the room to the system, we are always physically sitting in the same room. It is only the senses that bring one into the so called "concert hall", "recording venue" or any description of "live". If we let senses take complete control in this hobby, then we run into a big contradiction against the very idea of "high fidelity" defined by adequate objective criteria. But people then would argue high fidelity means "amusical", it is unlike the "real thing". But why is this the case? Can we bring in an entire orchestra into a room of 400sq feet? Physically impossible but sometimes our senses let us imagine we are now sitting in the middle section of a concert hall. That's fine but after all - this is an illusion. Our mind so know that this is an illusion achieved by the invention of hi fidelity stereo recording.
Then the musicality guys say locations are not so clear in a live setting and thus clear imaging and location are not right to their ears. Then, they blur the resolution of the system intentionally by downgrading the cables or whatever gadgets. More often than not, most people use expensive cables do not guarnatee satisfactory result either and hence two camps are pointing fingers to each other. Oh my God, everyone loses the sight of the fucking big picture! Isn't it?
Go back to the original work of Descartes. My listening senses take me to Utopia sometime but my mind at some point reminds me of the reality.
I would say your sharing is to discuss the attitude to listening to music. The main reason why I am so drawn into music is because it brings me out of the high pressure reality. This is exactly quite a contradiction to our burning desire to strive for the ultimate realism in music playback.
I certainly agree with you on the illusion of having a full orchestra playing within a 400 sq ft space. However, I possess a certain degree of indulgence in "role playing". Whenever I listen to my favorite music, I wish I were Christian Ferras jamming with Karajan, or playing alongside Kurt Cobain in the legendary MTV Unplugged, or I were John Squire playing ferocious psychedelic guitar for the Stone Roses. The "What if" fantasy is somhow a charm in my listening pleasure. Maybe it is because I am working in the field of creativity, such prescription of imagination may be indispensible to spur me on.
A recording would never be a reflection of reality. It is a calculated act to fulfill certain criteria (venue, performer preference, technique, culture and so forth). One can easily distinguish British rock from American rock. I once watched an interesting video about the making of the Nirvana Nevermind album. Butch Vig, the producer, demonstrated how he created the Nirvana sound. Do you know Kurt's vocal in "Come as you are" was actually a dubble tab of Kurt's voice? There have been too many man made elements in sound creation and therefore we never have a chance to listen to the pure sound.
Hence, my humble wish is to behold a system which can bring me music from different generations, instead of a homogeneous hi-fi display.
I recently had a collaboration with Lang Lang. It will be interesting to invite him to my place and ask him how he score my system playing his repetoire.
Happy listening to all AE buddies!
Des
I like you a lot! I have nothing to against "Role Playing". You may also mis-understand that I see Hi Fidelity is the end.
Put it this way, I see many "musical" people wearing the suit of Robin to role play Batman. Got me?
I can allow my senses to develop with an iPOD, why bother goes through all the troubles. Got me? And I like role play a lot too but I always make sure I got the correct costumes on.
Music pulls us together and your article is so moving that I have to leave all my work behind to write you something back.
Look forward to meeting you in person!
Des