Hello Katongkid.. for all types of sources, digital processing is done by our custom musIC chips. However, settings differ depending on signal path. The musIC chip applies a process to the input signal based on what we call 'maps'. A map contains a characterization of the signal path, so the musIC chip can predict instantaneous output and compare target response with real predicted response.
Signal path on vinyl playback is different than digital source playback. Added are a linear step-up amplifier stage, conditioning circuitry and A/D.
Specific maps are created for vinyl sources and digital sources.
With vinyl maps, we are considering all signal path, from input connector to output connector. For digital sources, we model from D/A section to the output connector. A vinyl map has more information than the digital map, given we have more information on the signal path.
When playing digital, we do not know the signal path or processes applied during recording. Namely A/D, preamplifiers, cables, etc.
We cannot take care of something we do not know and that is variable with each recording. In fact, the largest source of error in a recording is the microphone (time alignment!). We have applied our musIC process to microphones under laboratory conditions, and results are nothing short of amazing.
So vinyl playback allows us to deliver a step further in performance, since we know the full signal process. As you suggest, digital playback comes very close to vinyl playback.
I read over and over again on your replies in the forum, it is a wealth of design knowledge which we cannot find anywhere in the spec or reviews unless we have a direct dialogue with the designer.
I am using Mk2 at home both as a phono and CAS pairing with the Wadax server. For the phono section, there is an A/D process. Does the Ultimate Wadax use the same zepto clock in this A/D process? Assuming the A/D process is adopting a modular design, in theory, can we 'ripped' vinyl records into the Wadax server? It may be a very dump question, what is the digital standards for the analog signal converted to digital, is it something like 16/44, 24/96, 24/192?
As a proud owner of FM Acoustics 222 phono stage in the latest iteration, the discussions over the quality of digital phono stage here sounds like some kind of serious jokes to hardliner analog vinylphile like myself.
My dCS is completely beaten in the digtial audio playback by Trinity. I have had a lot of shits to swallow in the past two weeks amongst my hardliner peers. I made the call of "unthinkable" to check used prices of dCS to my disappointment. One of my friend decided to take my dCS deck at better prices. I placed order for the Trinity with tremendous reluctance but I did it anyway.
But for phono stage, I really want to pick a fight here. Never and never be possible would any digital phono stage can even have a slight chance of waging a war against analog phono stage. This turns everything completely upside down! And I don't know who is Mr. Zanden and why he carries so much weight. I need to verify myself.
If Mr. Leung don't mind, I would like to bring my FM Acoustics 222 to compare with the digital phono stage before or during CNY holidays.
Please be relaxed and don't be too preoccupied with all these "gear fights". Don't be obssessed with ego fights. Have an open mind will always reward you. I am a hardcore vinylphile like your goodself, and that is why I am so happy to learn Wadax Ultimate has brought me even a lot closer to the musical ideal. Unlike Marvel, I don't really care the means of technological breakthru, I only care the result of musicality.
I will always enjoy music first. I am still happy with my Da Vinci and Zanden. They don't have to go because Wadax Ultimate is more superior. Each of them carries emotional impact on me.
The master clock inside the Ultimate Wadax is code named ‘Zeno’ clock. Its pushes the performance a few steps up from the Mk2. The Zepto Clock is extremely complex and is able to offer unparalleled performance.
Regarding vinyl ‘rip’ storage, this is something we are working on. As you envision, as the Mk2 or the Ultimate does all processing in the digital domain, why not take that digital stream and store in the server. We can already do this via SPDIF output at the back of the Pre1, using a digital recorder. Output stream coming out from the 'SPDIF out' is 96KHz/24bits. Or even better… since our custom musIC chips that do vinyl processing work natively in 96KHz sampling and 128 bits accuracy, why not save at this resolution, so our library will sound will also improve as we discover new ways to push D/A performance even further. At the end we know we know nothing and we are permanent explorers for the unreachable.
Regarding sampling frequencies, the A/D in the Pre One are 96Khz at 24 bits. Internal math accuracy internally is 128 bits. This is very important for the final results. We are using 96KHz because at this sampling frequency perfomance is optimum in our A/D and its matches our technological purposes.
Your point is very interesting and as we see it, the future will come through full digital stream. The hardware resources to save native vinyl output are already available in the Pre1. A digital recorder could be used. But one of our development programs is to add the iPad app, the server and the Pre One into the recording loop.
Mr Leung even told me to bring as many friends as possible to witness the battle this time. I don't know what really stands behind his confidence. My peers' logic is that history is priceless behind the FM acoustics 222 phono. Majority of top audiophiles in HK/China only choose the FM222 as the de facto reference. And this round is not about digital shootout like Trinity versus dCS/Solution/CH precision but for Christ' sake analog phono versus digital phono!
When will this take place? Bring your cheque book. I am using Wadax Mk2 as phono, I know how it performs compared with the Trinity Phono (the triangular one before they changed to the current outlook).
I agree with Fat. Go and listen first. You don't always have to do "battle" to make the call. If I am not mistaken, you had only visited Mr.Leung's home but never have been to AE, right? I seriously recommend you should go there once with all of your favorite LP recordings. Listen to them for 1 hour. Then you probably will understand why we are recommending you not to pick such a fight.
On the contrary, I quite like the idea of "fighting". Without bleeding, there are no winners. When is the fight, I would love to attend. May I suggest PT to use the Wadax mark 2 only? That would induce more "fun" to the battle.
Comments
Signal path on vinyl playback is different than digital source playback. Added are a linear step-up amplifier stage, conditioning circuitry and A/D.
Specific maps are created for vinyl sources and digital sources.
With vinyl maps, we are considering all signal path, from input connector to output connector. For digital sources, we model from D/A section to the output connector. A vinyl map has more information than the digital map, given we have more information on the signal path.
When playing digital, we do not know the signal path or processes applied during recording. Namely A/D, preamplifiers, cables, etc.
We cannot take care of something we do not know and that is variable with each recording. In fact, the largest source of error in a recording is the microphone (time alignment!). We have applied our musIC process to microphones under laboratory conditions, and results are nothing short of amazing.
So vinyl playback allows us to deliver a step further in performance, since we know the full signal process. As you suggest, digital playback comes very close to vinyl playback.
I read over and over again on your replies in the forum, it is a wealth of design knowledge which we cannot find anywhere in the spec or reviews unless we have a direct dialogue with the designer.
I am using Mk2 at home both as a phono and CAS pairing with the Wadax server. For the phono section, there is an A/D process. Does the Ultimate Wadax use the same zepto clock in this A/D process? Assuming the A/D process is adopting a modular design, in theory, can we 'ripped' vinyl records into the Wadax server? It may be a very dump question, what is the digital standards for the analog signal converted to digital, is it something like 16/44, 24/96, 24/192?
Marvel
My dCS is completely beaten in the digtial audio playback by Trinity. I have had a lot of shits to swallow in the past two weeks amongst my hardliner peers. I made the call of "unthinkable" to check used prices of dCS to my disappointment. One of my friend decided to take my dCS deck at better prices. I placed order for the Trinity with tremendous reluctance but I did it anyway.
But for phono stage, I really want to pick a fight here. Never and never be possible would any digital phono stage can even have a slight chance of waging a war against analog phono stage. This turns everything completely upside down! And I don't know who is Mr. Zanden and why he carries so much weight. I need to verify myself.
If Mr. Leung don't mind, I would like to bring my FM Acoustics 222 to compare with the digital phono stage before or during CNY holidays.
Please be relaxed and don't be too preoccupied with all these "gear fights". Don't be obssessed with ego fights. Have an open mind will always reward you. I am a hardcore vinylphile like your goodself, and that is why I am so happy to learn Wadax Ultimate has brought me even a lot closer to the musical ideal. Unlike Marvel, I don't really care the means of technological breakthru, I only care the result of musicality.
I will always enjoy music first. I am still happy with my Da Vinci and Zanden. They don't have to go because Wadax Ultimate is more superior. Each of them carries emotional impact on me.
The master clock inside the Ultimate Wadax is code named ‘Zeno’ clock. Its pushes the performance a few steps up from the Mk2. The Zepto Clock is extremely complex and is able to offer unparalleled performance.
Regarding vinyl ‘rip’ storage, this is something we are working on. As you envision, as the Mk2 or the Ultimate does all processing in the digital domain, why not take that digital stream and store in the server. We can already do this via SPDIF output at the back of the Pre1, using a digital recorder. Output stream coming out from the 'SPDIF out' is 96KHz/24bits. Or even better… since our custom musIC chips that do vinyl processing work natively in 96KHz sampling and 128 bits accuracy, why not save at this resolution, so our library will sound will also improve as we discover new ways to push D/A performance even further. At the end we know we know nothing and we are permanent explorers for the unreachable.
Regarding sampling frequencies, the A/D in the Pre One are 96Khz at 24 bits. Internal math accuracy internally is 128 bits. This is very important for the final results. We are using 96KHz because at this sampling frequency perfomance is optimum in our A/D and its matches our technological purposes.
Your point is very interesting and as we see it, the future will come through full digital stream. The hardware resources to save native vinyl output are already available in the Pre1. A digital recorder could be used. But one of our development programs is to add the iPad app, the server and the Pre One into the recording loop.
I bet mr leung will tell you dont waste time on the comparison.
Mr Leung even told me to bring as many friends as possible to witness the battle this time. I don't know what really stands behind his confidence. My peers' logic is that history is priceless behind the FM acoustics 222 phono. Majority of top audiophiles in HK/China only choose the FM222 as the de facto reference. And this round is not about digital shootout like Trinity versus dCS/Solution/CH precision but for Christ' sake analog phono versus digital phono!
When will this take place? Bring your cheque book. I am using Wadax Mk2 as phono, I know how it performs compared with the Trinity Phono (the triangular one before they changed to the current outlook).
Marvel
你狠心地放棄了dCS, 我便知你是有耳朵的人。我十分明白你的心情，好似多年的信念輕易被攻破。你的心是不忿氣，所以又要挑機來平衡。我給你的建議是：不要拿222去。你自己去AE聽下先，然後再作決定吧。