You will be very happy with the Flow Reference. I have no chance to listen to FMR. They are constantly out of stock since December. The Flow sound very natural. You may disappoint if you look for hi fi sound from the Flow.
After sharing with other flow users in this forum, the experience are the same - natural and transparent. Mr.Zanden uses mega buck electronics. FMR with megabuck system of course produce more energy. Music details hide in the energy. I respect Mr.Zanden's effort to tune his acoustic to accommodate more energy in his room as a result of using FMR. The result must be good. Mr.Zanden is senior audiophile, if the improvement is not happy, I don't think he will buy a 2nd FMR in a short period of time and even start considering for FR for his other electronics.
I am waiting for FMR. Mr.Zanden waiting for FR......
I'm glad you gentlemen are making sense of what I have written so far as my primary aim is to share my hi-fi encounters with fellow audio buddies who may see something in me or what I've done represent part of themselves also.
Rob, you are TYPE C audiophile to me, I suggest you continue to move your speakers farther apart by increment of 3-5 mm until the extra energy almost goes away. Afterwards, if your speakers are already sufficiently placed away from the wall behind them (i.e. 3-4 ft), if necessary, you may then push them by increment of 3-4 mm closer to the wall to get better bass slam. Last but not least, try not to toe-in your speakers by more then 10 degrees as I have found the so-called pin point imaging has the trade-off of cretating an unnatural sound.
If you have achieved better sound balance after this exercise (takes one to 2 evenings - remember to mark the 'original' position of your present speakers' placement in case you want to reinstate your speakers to its original position because you do not get the sound you're longing for), then try to experiment the height of your silver resonator by pushing it higher or lower (by 1-2 mm at a time and remember to mark down its original position with a tiny bit of blu-tack ).
Once you're pleased with the improvement obtained so far, then go to the diffusors. First, ensure the pattern of the little wooden puck is horizontally stuck on the wall, the tilt it 'counter clockise' 10 degrees at a time (but no more then 30 degrees), you'll be surprised by the change in tonal colour of the sound. Next, move the puck higher or lower by 1-2 mm increment at a time (mark its original position) to get the right imaging you want to create.
After undergoing the abovementioned exercise successfully, you would have evolved into a TYPE C PLUS audiophile. Welcome to the club ! Now, you should be ready for the FLOW power cord, I suggest you seek the right advice from PT.
P.S. I may share my experience as user of full-range speakers later this week to respond to the 1st part of your mail.
My intuition tells me FMRs may not be the best match for my power amps, the slimmer FR cords should be a better match, just my hunch.
I am called Mr Zanden because I'm am the first person in the world who used a full suite of Zanden gears, I'm the only person in Hong Kong who enjoys a full set of Zanden gears, I'm the first person who used the super clock in the transport (other firsts include user of the pre-amp, KR 9600 power amp, phono amp etc). Yamada-san came to my home twice and I had also visited Zanden's showroom in Osaka.
I am the first one in Beijing use Wavac PR-T1 and HE833 mono blocks. Jlam told me you are very experience audiophile. I am just a starter for 2 years. The room acoustics resonator you mentioned are interesting. Maybe, Jlam should help me improve the acoustics.
I use 2 FMR on HE833. The sound is great. Jlam suggests me to go for Cessaro Wood Horn from Germany. What is your opinion of this horn?
Your response was a great read and a tremendous help.
Sensing more energy than I liked from the sound of my system, I tried fine tuning my speakers’ placement in the last two weeks, interestingly, reading your thread yesterday, I noticed immediately your two suggestions: 1. moving the speakers further apart, and 2. decreasing the toe-in angle---were exactly what I found effective in achieving a more relaxed sound. However, I did the changes without pre-knowing the consequences, your clear instruction helped me realize how to think, and how to solve similar type of problem in the future.
Through more trials, I found having less toe-in on speakers did the trick with little negatives. I ended up having the speakers remained in the same spots but with about 20 degree less toe-in than original. In addition, after finalizing speakers’ positions, I spent half an hour adjusting the spikes under the speakers, and with the help of a level gauge, I made sure both speakers sit straight, and that all 8 spikes rest tight and secure on 8 Acoustics System’s interlaces. Those measures resulted in tighter bass and a cleaner sound, further helped controling excess energy.
Re your suggestion of tuning the diffusers, it was something totally new to me. I did not mind the direction of the wood pattern on the diffusers when I installed them, last night, following your instruction, I took them all off the wall, and re-attach again with wood pattern lay horizontally, then I listened, I noticed a quieter, deader sound; and then I tried rotating the center diffuser on the back wall, I listened again, I was shocked with the result---as you have predicted. I found that the diffuser worked almost like a treble knob, of which I can adjust brightness by turning it. I did not have sufficient time last night, I need to experiment more, and I will fine tune the placement of diffusers and resonators per your recommendation in the next few weeks.
I noticed the sound has improved already through last night’s change, I am delighted, I felt that I now have several new tools to further advance my system. I am grateful to your input and suggestions! Keep them coming if you will.
PT has helped me a great deal in my development, he recommended me to try the Flow. I was not interested at first, as it has been hard for me to reach the state of my current set up, I was afraid that introducing the Flow or any other new component into the system would upset the balance. Besides, unlike you guys in HK, I can not really “try”. However, reading the overwhelming responses from the forum, and now that your thread, I can too feel the “type A” in me comes alive and shouting.
I look forward to reading your speaker experience.
The acoustic resonators & its other sound tuning devises are the most extraordinary room acoustic accessories I have stumbled across in recent years. Although they are very easy to install in your listening room, you really need to fine tune the placements of these little gadgets in order to achieve optimum sound. PT has more experience than me in setting these resonators in many rooms whilst I have spent much more time learning about them from the designer Franck Tchang as he has paid 3 seperate visits to my place and I have visited his showroom in Paris last summer. You should definitely use a full set of resonators with the help of PT if you want to hear your hi-fi system properly instead of the sound of your room(s).
Last but not least, I don't think anyone in H.K. has ever heard the Cessaro horn speakers, the design and drivers used are state-of-the- art. I have the pleasure of meeting the designer and invited him to hear my system recently, from our conversation, he is confident his horns can wipe the floor with any other statement loudspeakers in the market, including mine. I hope to be the first person to hear these horns when they arrive here in H.K. in the not to distant future. According to my very reliable source (about Cessaro's quality), I think you can't go wrong if use purchase them even without listening as its modular design (a rare quality) enables user to slowly upgrade the speakers simply by adding more drive units as well as employing the formidable basshorn tower(s).
I'm very pleased to learn you have achieved good results by tweaking your hi-fi system, more often than not, TYPE C PLUS/MINUS audiophiles can obtain better sound reproduction by not spending money and simply by moving their speakers a wee bit or playing around with home acoustics.
From the photo you had attached, if you're using a single silver resonator, then the postion to me is set far too low. Perhaps you'd be bold enough to move it at least 2 feet higher and the diffusor 12-14 inches higher also. After that, you would most likely be able to hear a larger & wider sounstage or simply put, more realistic soundstage & image.
There is a lot of truth in your classification of audiophiles, funny, I see the same types here in the US too.
Come to think of it, I think the way we treat hifi has some similarity to how we treat relationship: when we begin to develop interest in the opposite sex, we are like a type A, constantly seeking new experience and excitement; when we thought we found the ultimate and settle down, we were happy at first, but we soon starting to notice the shortcoming of our other half, kind of like a type B; when we went through a lot, we began to realize there is no one perfect out there, we need to work on relationship to make it successful, then we become a type C.
The great thing about being an audiophile is that we can stay forever young as a type A. I certainly can not wish for the same thing in relationship.
Am I a type C as you suggested? I do not know. I think I am maybe in between B & C. At this stage, I feel I did not have enough fun, and did not accumulate enough experience when I was a type A. However, I am in love with what I have, and I am working to get more out of them. I am lucky in a way that I do not even envy those who have the newest and the most expensive. (Sorry, Jlam, I may change again soon enough!)
Re the location of my center resonator and diffuser, I suspected they are too low as you pointed out, however, as I am a designer, I like really clean and simple look, I am reluctant to have the two “things” sit higher up in the middle of my white wall. Sorry, maybe there should be another classification for “compromised” audiophile, I would fit right in.
Despite my stubbornness about esthetic, could you still share more about your experience of the location of the resonators and diffusers? At the same time, I am eagerly waiting your writing of your speaker experience.
Loudspeakers and Room Acoustics – The REAL final hi-fi frontiers
Rob H,
The analogy you took between my classifications of different types of audiophile and relationships with the opposite sex was insightful. We merely highlighted certain ‘factual’ phenomena in audio life and human relationships. One can’t expect to achieve the best sound and then continue to enjoy the pleasure/happiness it brings to us without continuing to give our best effort, that’s why being a TYPE C PLUS person by nature, I can’t and am unable to do too many things at the same time, that’s why I can only manage one hobby !
Although life is about making compromise, TYPE C PLUS/MINUS audiophiles do not have this word in their hi-fi dictionary as any compromising act we take will seriously undermine the true capability of our beloved hi-fi system. Good sound and good aesthetics don’t compliment each other in hi-fi, so one needs to do whatever it takes to attain the best performance his system is capable of giving assuming your hi-fi fever stays above 103 degrees since the day you became a TYPE A audiophile.
In my opinion, loudspeakers, speaker placement and room acoustics are the most decisive variables in our journey to hi-fi nirvana. Firstly, the type of speakers you choose is absolutely paramount to whether you will ultimately arrive to the destination you have chosen. My experience is bookshelf loudspeakers (without or without additional subwoofers), mid-sized loudspeakers can only take you half-way to your ultimate stop as they have too many limitations and can’t really play all types of music well. Not until you have used a pair of full-range loudspeakers that you’d realize how ‘much more’ you can hear, even on vocal music, you can clearly notice the sound is more organic, one can use the analogy of photos taken from a mobile phone and a digital camera, the picture you see taken from the latter is better, its has more pixels, colour is richer, background is clearer and overall picture is simply ‘better’. If you still deny existence of such facts, then go and enlarge the picture, immediately, the difference is even more startling.
If you play vocals and simple music from small or mid-sized speakers, you’ll find them acceptable, however, if you go to hear an orchestra performs in a concert hall, afterwards, then play the same piece of music or something similar from your system, you would be immediately shocked as the sound seems like it is coming from a radio (maybe an exaggeration), the sound is anemic, thin and if you turn up the volume, the sound gets bright and hard and the soundstage completely breaks apart. If your hearing senses do not display such symptoms, then congrats as you don’t need to spend/waste any more money in upgrading your hi-fi. Quick check point, have you ever come across owners of full-range speakers reverting to mid-sized loudspeakers ? If not, there may be some hard core truth in what I have said above. Full-range speakers, for the price they command, are designed to give its owners uncompromising sound performance (only if they can optimize them), so that’s why I have chosen full-range loudspeakers and my definition will extend to its weight, for conventional box speakers, they need to weigh more than 250 lbs. Being a regular concert goer since 2000, I find the speakers (Eidolon with subwoofer and Eidolon Diamonds) I was using then could not reproduce the sound of mass strings and orchestral dynamics the way I heard them in a live concert. After I have used a pair of genuine full-range speakers, I was able to gradually tweak my systems to achieve the sound closer to a live concert. Now, I’m happy sitting in my room listening to orchestral music as I can enjoy the mass strings and dynamics of any large orchestra, obviously, I had (and will continue to) spent hundreds of hours moving my monoliths (each weighing almost 500 lbs) as well as tweaking room acoustics, once the acoustics and speakers’ placement are done properly, you can literally play any music at its recorded sound level without compression or hardness (i.e. the SPL of 100-110 decibels).
Regardless of what type of speakers you employ to enjoy the type of music you listen to, after the initial stage of choosing the right kind of musical transducers, you’ll need to make/help them sing in your room. There is really not enough coverage in hi-fi magazines and portals in how to go about placing speakers in your home, well perhaps there is no fixed formula or this is really more of an art than science. Let’s take another analogy, the same violin played by different violinist of varying degrees of talents will sound very differently even when you ask them to play the same piece of cadenza. Therefore, an experienced audiophile can make their speakers sing in their room even he does not use the most expensive or latest hi-fi components and when TYPE A enthusiasts hear it, they will feel disgusted or will be in a state of denial or their ears will twist with envy !
Speakers, more often than not, must be placed away from the rear wall (even small loudspeakers) if you are going to hear the ‘depth’ of musical reproduction, there is really no hard and fast rule but my experience is a minimum 2 ft space between the rear cabinet and the wall (for me it is 6 ft). One can use the yardstick of placing speakers at one-quarter or one-third (my preference) distance of the length of the listening room. Next, how far apart should the speakers be, again, no hard and fast rule, I prefer to have at least a minimum of 2 ft clearance. You’ll notice the central image will be more solid if you push both speakers closer and the sound more dynamic, if you overdo it, the soundstage narrows up and sound becomes a little unnatural, on the other hand, if your speakers are placed too wide apart, the image solidity will suffer and the sound dynamics weaken drastically. These 2 variable placement factors will take speaker owners several months to optimise, my suggestion is try to achieve a balanced sound with nice mid-bass and dynamics first and then fine tune it further with better highs and lows.
Next, room acoustics, well, this is one faculty in audio reproduction which I find has never been properly discussed in any hi-fi mags and hi-fi sites and since we all use different acoustic treatment tools/gadgets, I do not know how to write about this very abstract topic ! Well, if the acoustics are done right, you will experience the aural sense of calmness to begin with, then further listening of different types of music (on good recordings) will give you a wide and 3-D soundstage, in my room, the sound extends 4 ft beyond the sides of my speakers (from front to the rear), the side and rear walls in my room completely disappear and depth of the sound is over 12 ft, I think PT can attest to this as he last visited my home 3 weeks ago.
Perhaps I can make suggestions on the key areas of our listening room where any audiophile must pay attention to if he wants to tackle room acoustic problems or simply wish to improve it as the listening room forms the final link of the ‘playback’ system, it is really as vital (more in my experience) as any other components in our hi-fi system. The four major areas which must be properly addressed in our listening room are : standing waves; flutter echo; early reflections and bass reinforcement. I must confess I still don’t know much about them so I prefer to write about them in plain English.
We need to place acoustic treatment devise on the side wall (between 1-4 ft) in front and behind of each loudspeaker to control the reflected sound, once this is done right, the soundstage widens and you’ll be able to hear decays of certain sound better. Then treat the wall behind the speakers, you’ll need to put room-tuning devises in the middle and the sides and ditto with the wall behind the listener. Once this is done right, you’ll be able to enjoy the holographic sound image with a better perception of the depth of the music you play.
I find myself writing far more than I has originally intended to as I’m really a person enjoying doing things on my own and listening to music on my own. Hi-fi to me is a little sanctuary where I can escape from my hectic working environment (I work from home half of the time), so that’s why I need to achieve my own perfect sound if I want to escape from reality and hi-fi (not golf) does that trick for me.
Let’s continue to tweak our systems and may we soon find our hi-fi sanctuary !
Mr.Zanden, what a tremendous read! Many things I need to learn from you.
Can you share how does the 2nd FMR on your preamp bring up the total performance further?
Tonight, I unplugged the 2 FMR on the HE833. I use one on wavac preamp and one with zanden dac. The results are good but I still like FMR on the power amp more. The control and bass extension are very good and clean. When stock come, I will get one more for the linestage. In your mega system with excellent room tuning skills, you should try FMR on the Zanden poweramps.
Thank you so much for your writing, there is a lot of valuable information for me to comprehend and make use of in the future.
I admire your experience and wisdom, but especially, your passion for audio excellence. I see a lot of this love and drive from AE and its customers.
I would argue your point of view of “Good sound and good aesthetics don’t compliment each other in hi-fi”. I remember when I was in a design school in the 1980s (in US), a teacher told us: “fighter plane is designed to do air battle, so you would think that they all look alike, and aesthetic would not play a part in the design, right? No, fighters look different, and US fighters consistently looked better than Migs because we used industrial designers while they didn’t, and our planes are no less capable because of it”. The teacher told us a design without consideration of aesthetic does not necessarily function better; generally speaking, the opposite is true. There would be more than one way to achieve a same goal, and often, a simple and elegant way to get there is the best way, and the ultimate sign of a successful design. Another case in point is that most would agree that nature is beautiful; trees, flowers, water falls, etc. are pure expression of “form follow function”, those nature phenomenon is a proof that aesthetic and function can not only co-exist, they often go hand in hand.
Drying cloth by hanging them outside a window is effective, but an eyesore to neighbors. There got to be better solution.
Sorry that I write this defensively, my profession is design. I think there got to be ways to combine musicality with aesthetic. I certainly understand you, for instance, would not want to move the position of a diffuser---located at the ultimate position sonically---just for aesthetic reason. Actually, I have been thinking hard on this subject from both sides, I think if form should follow function, I should have that diffuser at its optimal place; on the other hand, a dot in the middle of my white wall looked so unnatural, I just could not stand it. I went back and forth but could not come up with an answer. The good thing is, most audiophiles are not designers, they would not be as particular as I am; also, the acoustic system’s devices are way friendlier than most conventional acoustic devices, so the aesthetic of their devices would not be a problem, but actually a plus for most. I am just weird.
I read that the Acoustic system’s devices can be effective even when placed out of sight, I wish I can have a full understanding of how they work.
The photo analogy you used on describing the difference between big and small speakers is very easy to understand. I have been thinking about speaker upgrade for a while, I will take your suggestion into consideration.
I envy that you have good seat for concert. Me and my wife have season tickets to the Disney Concert Hall in LA. Our subscription started last year, we were not able to get front row seats. I noticed from our mid-hall perspective, the sound is quite warm and rolled off, beautiful but with much less detail than listening at home. I wish we can have better seat in the future. We should also try going to some smaller, more intimate setting, it would be interesting to get a close-up perspective for a change. I agree totally that going to concerts and live music can be really big help in establishing a reference to tune our system.
I am sure you have quite a sanctuary. I wish I could have chance to have a taste of it in the future! Again, thanks for all the tips!!
Finally got two more FMR for the Wavac preamp and Zanden dac. Without room acoustics adjustment I have never tried before, the results of the new sound I am not so sure to report now. My philosophy is heavily influenced by Mr.Zanden's writing on room acoustics. I read it many times. Jlam and his staff are fully booked until May. It is so good to live close nearby. Even I pay all the air ticket, meals and entertainment, they have no time coming to Beijing.
Without the resonators, how can I deal with the acoustics? I have to say the FMR on the preamp and the dac gives very good sound. It is very refined and powerful dynamic at the same time.
Please don’t take my writings too seriously and if you are enjoying the sound of your system and do not detect any unpleasant characteristics from the speakers or the room, then just continue to enjoy the music you play with the FLOW !
Are your speakers performing ?
It appears I am now suffering from relapse of the poignant TYPE A audiophile fever again after having got rid of it for almost a year.
For the past 3 weeks, I have been tweaking room acoustics & making minor speaker placements due to the replacement of 2 existing power cords by the FMR, I was extremely pleased with the results (improvement in sound) I got and thought this TYPE A relapse will go away soon. However, as I was happy listening to all types of music last Saturday morning, I received a call from P.T. that the 2 FR cords had arrived and I should collect them at my earliest convenience. Reluctantly, I went to fetch these 2 leaner (in comparison to the FMR) white silken cords almost straight away but I resisted to plug them directly to my amps as I didn’t want to spend whole of Saturday and/or Sunday adjusting my room acoustic devises (resonators and tiny wooden blocks) again as they had been set almost perfectly and honestly, I couldn’t put up with the hassle of moving them any more. Therefore, I plugged them to the radio and led them burn-in for 3 days until today.
After listening to my system with these 2 new cords connected to the Zanden amps for 2 hours, I have to declare that P.T. was “ right in the money “ by suggesting to me to use these cords for the power amps, the sound now is more transparent and just a wee bit more dynamic, it is like several veils have been lifted in front of the speakers, the sound becomes more life-like and soundstage is more precise, I only needed to make very minor adjustments to the wooden diffusor & the tiny wooden block to fine tune the overall sound. Great, I am now experiencing the best sound in my little sanctuary and such excitement has prompted me to share my joy in this forum and express my appreciation for P.T. spot-on recommendation.
Without being branded as a sole classical music listener, I took out Eva Cassidy’s Live at Blues Alley CD and played the popular track # 9 What a wonderful world, let’s see if you can experience similar sound spectrum the way I do. Play this track at normal sound level, the vocal should be sweet and never coarse or hard, the cymbals are subtle and each bass note should be audible. Right from the 1st few seconds, you can hear little ‘hiss’ coming from the valve amplification and the bass should occupy 20-25% of the lower sound spectrum, it should sound rhythmic, tuneful and dissipate just below your stomach and occasionally shaking the floor. In the middle when lead guitar solo is being played, it should sound tuneful but never harsh and can you clearly hear the piano is acoustic piano and not the electric type.
After you have enjoyed this song, proceed to your pre-amp and turn up the volume by one o’clock and return to your hot seat, play track # 3 Bridge Over Troubled Water. Similarly, you can hear minor hiss in the very beginning together with the slight clanging sound of the plates on the left. Eva started playing her electric guitar (can you hear clearly she was finger-picking), as soon as the 1st bass note is played, you can feel the power, it should never sound too boomy (if so, adjust your speaker placement), the bass now should occupy 25% of the overall sound spectrum and shake the floor more often with greater dynamics. The cymbals now sound more prominent, with almost occasional shimmering highs and when the guitar solo part is played, you can hear its power but it is never sounding hard.
If you are experiencing (especially owners of high efficiency speakers - small to medium sized speakers, those with small speakers will NOT hear the lower spectrum) the sound of what I have just described above, then WELL DONE ! You have a finely balanced system. If you want to further test the tonality, perhaps this time you can find, if you can, one of my all-time favourites – Rossini’s String Sonatas performed by the imitable Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields conducted by Marriner, track # 1, if you find the mass strings on the left-hand side sounding sweet with good harmonics instead of thin and edgy and the dynamics of the double bass on the right-hand side gently shaking the floor, then congratulations (you can also use Gala Stradivarius Concert and play track # 9 Autumn Allegro – the powerful mass strings at the very beginning should not sound hard and when the violin solo part is played, can you hear the wooden tone or edgy strings), you have achieved what I have been striving to do in last 3 years and if you don’t, please continue to move your speakers and play the Cassidy & Rossini CDs until you get them right.
Lastly, just a very useful tip I’d like to share (only pass this to your humble audiophile friends and not to those who simply criticize shortcomings in other peoples’ systems), it is common when you move one of your speakers very slightly, the dynamics as well as the bloom in the mid-bass suffer all of a sudden, so even when you mark the position of your speakers by masking tape before moving the speaker(s), you may not be able to revert to the original position. Do not despair, mark a point 2 feet in the middle in front of your hot seat position (it must be dead accurate) and measure the distance from this point to the middle base of your speaker on either side, make sure they are exactly ‘ equidistant ‘ (within 1 mm), then you only need to fine tune the toe in (the less the better) to obtain the best image and 3-dimentionality. Repeat this by moving your speakers closer or farther apart from each other as well as closer to or farther away from the back wall UNTIL you have achieved the sound you want, take as long as necessary i.e. 1 week to 3 months.
Well although I think I am now done with tweaking my system and will enjoy the fruits of my hundreds of hours of labour, I may have to make further finer adjustments again after going to Elaine Page concert this Friday and Beethoven’s Emperor’s Piano Concerto on Saturday, well there is no harm done in doing so as long as I can make a tiny bit of improvement, right. Until then, I am experiencing the majestic sound in my sanctuary when I play my favourite piano concerto – Emperor performed by Arrau with the Staatskapelle conducted by Colin Davis (the first 1986 single concerto first version copy), it is in my memory, like sitting in the 5 th or 7 th row in the concert hall. I shall check this out on Sat. night.
Happy tweaking and if you are still reading this, you must be TYPE C audiophile, am I right or am I wrong ?
Are you using Flow too on the Zanden dac? I used it on the Zanden dac with excellent result. Your descriptions are spot on. It is like removing several layers of moist/mist from the speakers. The transparency is life-like. The dac is usually the culprit for transmitting digital noises to the analog component. The use of Flow in this section benefits the sound tremendously.
Comments
You will be very happy with the Flow Reference. I have no chance to listen to FMR. They are constantly out of stock since December. The Flow sound very natural. You may disappoint if you look for hi fi sound from the Flow.
After sharing with other flow users in this forum, the experience are the same - natural and transparent. Mr.Zanden uses mega buck electronics. FMR with megabuck system of course produce more energy. Music details hide in the energy. I respect Mr.Zanden's effort to tune his acoustic to accommodate more energy in his room as a result of using FMR. The result must be good. Mr.Zanden is senior audiophile, if the improvement is not happy, I don't think he will buy a 2nd FMR in a short period of time and even start considering for FR for his other electronics.
I am waiting for FMR. Mr.Zanden waiting for FR......
Ju
I'm glad you gentlemen are making sense of what I have written so far as my primary aim is to share my hi-fi encounters with fellow audio buddies who may see something in me or what I've done represent part of themselves also.
Rob, you are TYPE C audiophile to me, I suggest you continue to move your speakers farther apart by increment of 3-5 mm until the extra energy almost goes away. Afterwards, if your speakers are already sufficiently placed away from the wall behind them (i.e. 3-4 ft), if necessary, you may then push them by increment of 3-4 mm closer to the wall to get better bass slam. Last but not least, try not to toe-in your speakers by more then 10 degrees as I have found the so-called pin point imaging has the trade-off of cretating an unnatural sound.
If you have achieved better sound balance after this exercise (takes one to 2 evenings - remember to mark the 'original' position of your present speakers' placement in case you want to reinstate your speakers to its original position because you do not get the sound you're longing for), then try to experiment the height of your silver resonator by pushing it higher or lower (by 1-2 mm at a time and remember to mark down its original position with a tiny bit of blu-tack ).
Once you're pleased with the improvement obtained so far, then go to the diffusors. First, ensure the pattern of the little wooden puck is horizontally stuck on the wall, the tilt it 'counter clockise' 10 degrees at a time (but no more then 30 degrees), you'll be surprised by the change in tonal colour of the sound. Next, move the puck higher or lower by 1-2 mm increment at a time (mark its original position) to get the right imaging you want to create.
After undergoing the abovementioned exercise successfully, you would have evolved into a TYPE C PLUS audiophile. Welcome to the club ! Now, you should be ready for the FLOW power cord, I suggest you seek the right advice from PT.
P.S. I may share my experience as user of full-range speakers later this week to respond to the 1st part of your mail.
I am called Mr Zanden because I'm am the first person in the world who used a full suite of Zanden gears, I'm the only person in Hong Kong who enjoys a full set of Zanden gears, I'm the first person who used the super clock in the transport (other firsts include user of the pre-amp, KR 9600 power amp, phono amp etc). Yamada-san came to my home twice and I had also visited Zanden's showroom in Osaka.
I am the first one in Beijing use Wavac PR-T1 and HE833 mono blocks. Jlam told me you are very experience audiophile. I am just a starter for 2 years. The room acoustics resonator you mentioned are interesting. Maybe, Jlam should help me improve the acoustics.
I use 2 FMR on HE833. The sound is great. Jlam suggests me to go for Cessaro Wood Horn from Germany. What is your opinion of this horn?
Thanks for sharing your “Flow” experience!!
Mr. Zanden,
Your response was a great read and a tremendous help.
Sensing more energy than I liked from the sound of my system, I tried fine tuning my speakers’ placement in the last two weeks, interestingly, reading your thread yesterday, I noticed immediately your two suggestions: 1. moving the speakers further apart, and 2. decreasing the toe-in angle---were exactly what I found effective in achieving a more relaxed sound. However, I did the changes without pre-knowing the consequences, your clear instruction helped me realize how to think, and how to solve similar type of problem in the future.
Through more trials, I found having less toe-in on speakers did the trick with little negatives. I ended up having the speakers remained in the same spots but with about 20 degree less toe-in than original. In addition, after finalizing speakers’ positions, I spent half an hour adjusting the spikes under the speakers, and with the help of a level gauge, I made sure both speakers sit straight, and that all 8 spikes rest tight and secure on 8 Acoustics System’s interlaces. Those measures resulted in tighter bass and a cleaner sound, further helped controling excess energy.
Re your suggestion of tuning the diffusers, it was something totally new to me. I did not mind the direction of the wood pattern on the diffusers when I installed them, last night, following your instruction, I took them all off the wall, and re-attach again with wood pattern lay horizontally, then I listened, I noticed a quieter, deader sound; and then I tried rotating the center diffuser on the back wall, I listened again, I was shocked with the result---as you have predicted. I found that the diffuser worked almost like a treble knob, of which I can adjust brightness by turning it. I did not have sufficient time last night, I need to experiment more, and I will fine tune the placement of diffusers and resonators per your recommendation in the next few weeks.
I noticed the sound has improved already through last night’s change, I am delighted, I felt that I now have several new tools to further advance my system. I am grateful to your input and suggestions! Keep them coming if you will.
PT has helped me a great deal in my development, he recommended me to try the Flow. I was not interested at first, as it has been hard for me to reach the state of my current set up, I was afraid that introducing the Flow or any other new component into the system would upset the balance. Besides, unlike you guys in HK, I can not really “try”. However, reading the overwhelming responses from the forum, and now that your thread, I can too feel the “type A” in me comes alive and shouting.
I look forward to reading your speaker experience.
The acoustic resonators & its other sound tuning devises are the most extraordinary room acoustic accessories I have stumbled across in recent years. Although they are very easy to install in your listening room, you really need to fine tune the placements of these little gadgets in order to achieve optimum sound. PT has more experience than me in setting these resonators in many rooms whilst I have spent much more time learning about them from the designer Franck Tchang as he has paid 3 seperate visits to my place and I have visited his showroom in Paris last summer. You should definitely use a full set of resonators with the help of PT if you want to hear your hi-fi system properly instead of the sound of your room(s).
Last but not least, I don't think anyone in H.K. has ever heard the Cessaro horn speakers, the design and drivers used are state-of-the- art. I have the pleasure of meeting the designer and invited him to hear my system recently, from our conversation, he is confident his horns can wipe the floor with any other statement loudspeakers in the market, including mine. I hope to be the first person to hear these horns when they arrive here in H.K. in the not to distant future. According to my very reliable source (about Cessaro's quality), I think you can't go wrong if use purchase them even without listening as its modular design (a rare quality) enables user to slowly upgrade the speakers simply by adding more drive units as well as employing the formidable basshorn tower(s).
I'm very pleased to learn you have achieved good results by tweaking your hi-fi system, more often than not, TYPE C PLUS/MINUS audiophiles can obtain better sound reproduction by not spending money and simply by moving their speakers a wee bit or playing around with home acoustics.
From the photo you had attached, if you're using a single silver resonator, then the postion to me is set far too low. Perhaps you'd be bold enough to move it at least 2 feet higher and the diffusor 12-14 inches higher also. After that, you would most likely be able to hear a larger & wider sounstage or simply put, more realistic soundstage & image.
Happy tweaking !
There is a lot of truth in your classification of audiophiles, funny, I see the same types here in the US too.
Come to think of it, I think the way we treat hifi has some similarity to how we treat relationship: when we begin to develop interest in the opposite sex, we are like a type A, constantly seeking new experience and excitement; when we thought we found the ultimate and settle down, we were happy at first, but we soon starting to notice the shortcoming of our other half, kind of like a type B; when we went through a lot, we began to realize there is no one perfect out there, we need to work on relationship to make it successful, then we become a type C.
The great thing about being an audiophile is that we can stay forever young as a type A. I certainly can not wish for the same thing in relationship.
Am I a type C as you suggested? I do not know. I think I am maybe in between B & C. At this stage, I feel I did not have enough fun, and did not accumulate enough experience when I was a type A. However, I am in love with what I have, and I am working to get more out of them. I am lucky in a way that I do not even envy those who have the newest and the most expensive. (Sorry, Jlam, I may change again soon enough!)
Re the location of my center resonator and diffuser, I suspected they are too low as you pointed out, however, as I am a designer, I like really clean and simple look, I am reluctant to have the two “things” sit higher up in the middle of my white wall. Sorry, maybe there should be another classification for “compromised” audiophile, I would fit right in.
Despite my stubbornness about esthetic, could you still share more about your experience of the location of the resonators and diffusers? At the same time, I am eagerly waiting your writing of your speaker experience.
Robert
Rob H,
The analogy you took between my classifications of different types of audiophile and relationships with the opposite sex was insightful. We merely highlighted certain ‘factual’ phenomena in audio life and human relationships. One can’t expect to achieve the best sound and then continue to enjoy the pleasure/happiness it brings to us without continuing to give our best effort, that’s why being a TYPE C PLUS person by nature, I can’t and am unable to do too many things at the same time, that’s why I can only manage one hobby !
Although life is about making compromise, TYPE C PLUS/MINUS audiophiles do not have this word in their hi-fi dictionary as any compromising act we take will seriously undermine the true capability of our beloved hi-fi system. Good sound and good aesthetics don’t compliment each other in hi-fi, so one needs to do whatever it takes to attain the best performance his system is capable of giving assuming your hi-fi fever stays above 103 degrees since the day you became a TYPE A audiophile.
In my opinion, loudspeakers, speaker placement and room acoustics are the most decisive variables in our journey to hi-fi nirvana. Firstly, the type of speakers you choose is absolutely paramount to whether you will ultimately arrive to the destination you have chosen. My experience is bookshelf loudspeakers (without or without additional subwoofers), mid-sized loudspeakers can only take you half-way to your ultimate stop as they have too many limitations and can’t really play all types of music well. Not until you have used a pair of full-range loudspeakers that you’d realize how ‘much more’ you can hear, even on vocal music, you can clearly notice the sound is more organic, one can use the analogy of photos taken from a mobile phone and a digital camera, the picture you see taken from the latter is better, its has more pixels, colour is richer, background is clearer and overall picture is simply ‘better’. If you still deny existence of such facts, then go and enlarge the picture, immediately, the difference is even more startling.
If you play vocals and simple music from small or mid-sized speakers, you’ll find them acceptable, however, if you go to hear an orchestra performs in a concert hall, afterwards, then play the same piece of music or something similar from your system, you would be immediately shocked as the sound seems like it is coming from a radio (maybe an exaggeration), the sound is anemic, thin and if you turn up the volume, the sound gets bright and hard and the soundstage completely breaks apart. If your hearing senses do not display such symptoms, then congrats as you don’t need to spend/waste any more money in upgrading your hi-fi. Quick check point, have you ever come across owners of full-range speakers reverting to mid-sized loudspeakers ? If not, there may be some hard core truth in what I have said above. Full-range speakers, for the price they command, are designed to give its owners uncompromising sound performance (only if they can optimize them), so that’s why I have chosen full-range loudspeakers and my definition will extend to its weight, for conventional box speakers, they need to weigh more than 250 lbs. Being a regular concert goer since 2000, I find the speakers (Eidolon with subwoofer and Eidolon Diamonds) I was using then could not reproduce the sound of mass strings and orchestral dynamics the way I heard them in a live concert. After I have used a pair of genuine full-range speakers, I was able to gradually tweak my systems to achieve the sound closer to a live concert. Now, I’m happy sitting in my room listening to orchestral music as I can enjoy the mass strings and dynamics of any large orchestra, obviously, I had (and will continue to) spent hundreds of hours moving my monoliths (each weighing almost 500 lbs) as well as tweaking room acoustics, once the acoustics and speakers’ placement are done properly, you can literally play any music at its recorded sound level without compression or hardness (i.e. the SPL of 100-110 decibels).
Regardless of what type of speakers you employ to enjoy the type of music you listen to, after the initial stage of choosing the right kind of musical transducers, you’ll need to make/help them sing in your room. There is really not enough coverage in hi-fi magazines and portals in how to go about placing speakers in your home, well perhaps there is no fixed formula or this is really more of an art than science. Let’s take another analogy, the same violin played by different violinist of varying degrees of talents will sound very differently even when you ask them to play the same piece of cadenza. Therefore, an experienced audiophile can make their speakers sing in their room even he does not use the most expensive or latest hi-fi components and when TYPE A enthusiasts hear it, they will feel disgusted or will be in a state of denial or their ears will twist with envy !
Speakers, more often than not, must be placed away from the rear wall (even small loudspeakers) if you are going to hear the ‘depth’ of musical reproduction, there is really no hard and fast rule but my experience is a minimum 2 ft space between the rear cabinet and the wall (for me it is 6 ft). One can use the yardstick of placing speakers at one-quarter or one-third (my preference) distance of the length of the listening room. Next, how far apart should the speakers be, again, no hard and fast rule, I prefer to have at least a minimum of 2 ft clearance. You’ll notice the central image will be more solid if you push both speakers closer and the sound more dynamic, if you overdo it, the soundstage narrows up and sound becomes a little unnatural, on the other hand, if your speakers are placed too wide apart, the image solidity will suffer and the sound dynamics weaken drastically. These 2 variable placement factors will take speaker owners several months to optimise, my suggestion is try to achieve a balanced sound with nice mid-bass and dynamics first and then fine tune it further with better highs and lows.
Next, room acoustics, well, this is one faculty in audio reproduction which I find has never been properly discussed in any hi-fi mags and hi-fi sites and since we all use different acoustic treatment tools/gadgets, I do not know how to write about this very abstract topic ! Well, if the acoustics are done right, you will experience the aural sense of calmness to begin with, then further listening of different types of music (on good recordings) will give you a wide and 3-D soundstage, in my room, the sound extends 4 ft beyond the sides of my speakers (from front to the rear), the side and rear walls in my room completely disappear and depth of the sound is over 12 ft, I think PT can attest to this as he last visited my home 3 weeks ago.
Perhaps I can make suggestions on the key areas of our listening room where any audiophile must pay attention to if he wants to tackle room acoustic problems or simply wish to improve it as the listening room forms the final link of the ‘playback’ system, it is really as vital (more in my experience) as any other components in our hi-fi system. The four major areas which must be properly addressed in our listening room are : standing waves; flutter echo; early reflections and bass reinforcement. I must confess I still don’t know much about them so I prefer to write about them in plain English.
We need to place acoustic treatment devise on the side wall (between 1-4 ft) in front and behind of each loudspeaker to control the reflected sound, once this is done right, the soundstage widens and you’ll be able to hear decays of certain sound better. Then treat the wall behind the speakers, you’ll need to put room-tuning devises in the middle and the sides and ditto with the wall behind the listener. Once this is done right, you’ll be able to enjoy the holographic sound image with a better perception of the depth of the music you play.
I find myself writing far more than I has originally intended to as I’m really a person enjoying doing things on my own and listening to music on my own. Hi-fi to me is a little sanctuary where I can escape from my hectic working environment (I work from home half of the time), so that’s why I need to achieve my own perfect sound if I want to escape from reality and hi-fi (not golf) does that trick for me.
Let’s continue to tweak our systems and may we soon find our hi-fi sanctuary !
Can you share how does the 2nd FMR on your preamp bring up the total performance further?
Tonight, I unplugged the 2 FMR on the HE833. I use one on wavac preamp and one with zanden dac. The results are good but I still like FMR on the power amp more. The control and bass extension are very good and clean. When stock come, I will get one more for the linestage. In your mega system with excellent room tuning skills, you should try FMR on the Zanden poweramps.
Thank you so much for your writing, there is a lot of valuable information for me to comprehend and make use of in the future.
I admire your experience and wisdom, but especially, your passion for audio excellence. I see a lot of this love and drive from AE and its customers.
I would argue your point of view of “Good sound and good aesthetics don’t compliment each other in hi-fi”. I remember when I was in a design school in the 1980s (in US), a teacher told us: “fighter plane is designed to do air battle, so you would think that they all look alike, and aesthetic would not play a part in the design, right? No, fighters look different, and US fighters consistently looked better than Migs because we used industrial designers while they didn’t, and our planes are no less capable because of it”. The teacher told us a design without consideration of aesthetic does not necessarily function better; generally speaking, the opposite is true. There would be more than one way to achieve a same goal, and often, a simple and elegant way to get there is the best way, and the ultimate sign of a successful design. Another case in point is that most would agree that nature is beautiful; trees, flowers, water falls, etc. are pure expression of “form follow function”, those nature phenomenon is a proof that aesthetic and function can not only co-exist, they often go hand in hand.
Drying cloth by hanging them outside a window is effective, but an eyesore to neighbors. There got to be better solution.
Sorry that I write this defensively, my profession is design. I think there got to be ways to combine musicality with aesthetic. I certainly understand you, for instance, would not want to move the position of a diffuser---located at the ultimate position sonically---just for aesthetic reason. Actually, I have been thinking hard on this subject from both sides, I think if form should follow function, I should have that diffuser at its optimal place; on the other hand, a dot in the middle of my white wall looked so unnatural, I just could not stand it. I went back and forth but could not come up with an answer. The good thing is, most audiophiles are not designers, they would not be as particular as I am; also, the acoustic system’s devices are way friendlier than most conventional acoustic devices, so the aesthetic of their devices would not be a problem, but actually a plus for most. I am just weird.
I read that the Acoustic system’s devices can be effective even when placed out of sight, I wish I can have a full understanding of how they work.
The photo analogy you used on describing the difference between big and small speakers is very easy to understand. I have been thinking about speaker upgrade for a while, I will take your suggestion into consideration.
I envy that you have good seat for concert. Me and my wife have season tickets to the Disney Concert Hall in LA. Our subscription started last year, we were not able to get front row seats. I noticed from our mid-hall perspective, the sound is quite warm and rolled off, beautiful but with much less detail than listening at home. I wish we can have better seat in the future. We should also try going to some smaller, more intimate setting, it would be interesting to get a close-up perspective for a change. I agree totally that going to concerts and live music can be really big help in establishing a reference to tune our system.
I am sure you have quite a sanctuary. I wish I could have chance to have a taste of it in the future! Again, thanks for all the tips!!
Robert
Without the resonators, how can I deal with the acoustics? I have to say the FMR on the preamp and the dac gives very good sound. It is very refined and powerful dynamic at the same time.
Please don’t take my writings too seriously and if you are enjoying the sound of your system and do not detect any unpleasant characteristics from the speakers or the room, then just continue to enjoy the music you play with the FLOW !
Are your speakers performing ?
It appears I am now suffering from relapse of the poignant TYPE A audiophile fever again after having got rid of it for almost a year.
For the past 3 weeks, I have been tweaking room acoustics & making minor speaker placements due to the replacement of 2 existing power cords by the FMR, I was extremely pleased with the results (improvement in sound) I got and thought this TYPE A relapse will go away soon. However, as I was happy listening to all types of music last Saturday morning, I received a call from P.T. that the 2 FR cords had arrived and I should collect them at my earliest convenience. Reluctantly, I went to fetch these 2 leaner (in comparison to the FMR) white silken cords almost straight away but I resisted to plug them directly to my amps as I didn’t want to spend whole of Saturday and/or Sunday adjusting my room acoustic devises (resonators and tiny wooden blocks) again as they had been set almost perfectly and honestly, I couldn’t put up with the hassle of moving them any more. Therefore, I plugged them to the radio and led them burn-in for 3 days until today.
After listening to my system with these 2 new cords connected to the Zanden amps for 2 hours, I have to declare that P.T. was “ right in the money “ by suggesting to me to use these cords for the power amps, the sound now is more transparent and just a wee bit more dynamic, it is like several veils have been lifted in front of the speakers, the sound becomes more life-like and soundstage is more precise, I only needed to make very minor adjustments to the wooden diffusor & the tiny wooden block to fine tune the overall sound. Great, I am now experiencing the best sound in my little sanctuary and such excitement has prompted me to share my joy in this forum and express my appreciation for P.T. spot-on recommendation.
Without being branded as a sole classical music listener, I took out Eva Cassidy’s Live at Blues Alley CD and played the popular track # 9 What a wonderful world, let’s see if you can experience similar sound spectrum the way I do. Play this track at normal sound level, the vocal should be sweet and never coarse or hard, the cymbals are subtle and each bass note should be audible. Right from the 1st few seconds, you can hear little ‘hiss’ coming from the valve amplification and the bass should occupy 20-25% of the lower sound spectrum, it should sound rhythmic, tuneful and dissipate just below your stomach and occasionally shaking the floor. In the middle when lead guitar solo is being played, it should sound tuneful but never harsh and can you clearly hear the piano is acoustic piano and not the electric type.
After you have enjoyed this song, proceed to your pre-amp and turn up the volume by one o’clock and return to your hot seat, play track # 3 Bridge Over Troubled Water. Similarly, you can hear minor hiss in the very beginning together with the slight clanging sound of the plates on the left. Eva started playing her electric guitar (can you hear clearly she was finger-picking), as soon as the 1st bass note is played, you can feel the power, it should never sound too boomy (if so, adjust your speaker placement), the bass now should occupy 25% of the overall sound spectrum and shake the floor more often with greater dynamics. The cymbals now sound more prominent, with almost occasional shimmering highs and when the guitar solo part is played, you can hear its power but it is never sounding hard.
If you are experiencing (especially owners of high efficiency speakers - small to medium sized speakers, those with small speakers will NOT hear the lower spectrum) the sound of what I have just described above, then WELL DONE ! You have a finely balanced system. If you want to further test the tonality, perhaps this time you can find, if you can, one of my all-time favourites – Rossini’s String Sonatas performed by the imitable Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields conducted by Marriner, track # 1, if you find the mass strings on the left-hand side sounding sweet with good harmonics instead of thin and edgy and the dynamics of the double bass on the right-hand side gently shaking the floor, then congratulations (you can also use Gala Stradivarius Concert and play track # 9 Autumn Allegro – the powerful mass strings at the very beginning should not sound hard and when the violin solo part is played, can you hear the wooden tone or edgy strings), you have achieved what I have been striving to do in last 3 years and if you don’t, please continue to move your speakers and play the Cassidy & Rossini CDs until you get them right.
Lastly, just a very useful tip I’d like to share (only pass this to your humble audiophile friends and not to those who simply criticize shortcomings in other peoples’ systems), it is common when you move one of your speakers very slightly, the dynamics as well as the bloom in the mid-bass suffer all of a sudden, so even when you mark the position of your speakers by masking tape before moving the speaker(s), you may not be able to revert to the original position. Do not despair, mark a point 2 feet in the middle in front of your hot seat position (it must be dead accurate) and measure the distance from this point to the middle base of your speaker on either side, make sure they are exactly ‘ equidistant ‘ (within 1 mm), then you only need to fine tune the toe in (the less the better) to obtain the best image and 3-dimentionality. Repeat this by moving your speakers closer or farther apart from each other as well as closer to or farther away from the back wall UNTIL you have achieved the sound you want, take as long as necessary i.e. 1 week to 3 months.
Well although I think I am now done with tweaking my system and will enjoy the fruits of my hundreds of hours of labour, I may have to make further finer adjustments again after going to Elaine Page concert this Friday and Beethoven’s Emperor’s Piano Concerto on Saturday, well there is no harm done in doing so as long as I can make a tiny bit of improvement, right. Until then, I am experiencing the majestic sound in my sanctuary when I play my favourite piano concerto – Emperor performed by Arrau with the Staatskapelle conducted by Colin Davis (the first 1986 single concerto first version copy), it is in my memory, like sitting in the 5 th or 7 th row in the concert hall. I shall check this out on Sat. night.
Happy tweaking and if you are still reading this, you must be TYPE C audiophile, am I right or am I wrong ?
Are you using Flow too on the Zanden dac? I used it on the Zanden dac with excellent result. Your descriptions are spot on. It is like removing several layers of moist/mist from the speakers. The transparency is life-like. The dac is usually the culprit for transmitting digital noises to the analog component. The use of Flow in this section benefits the sound tremendously.
Ajar