Dear AE followers worldwide, please allow me some time to write an objective report of what had happened yesterday during the comparison of Takumi and Wavac 833. I hope to deliver a report in the correct context in the most accurate manner.
Mr So, thanks for inviting me to your place yesterday, I'm sure we all learn something about hi-end reproduction. Your system has a great improvement since my last visit, congrat again.
This game is really for fun more than anything else. How can one expect an alien to perform well in the host system? The host system always has the advantage of harmonization and syenrgies. The 833 tube will always has a fatter lower mid bass, roll off at the high. That's the nature of the tube itself that can't be changed. And Takumi, though I never listen before, will probably be the opposite.
This is purely for entertainment and the conclusions (if there is any out of such exercise) are likely to be fault. This is no different from bringing an Mark Levinson flagship amp to drive the Algame. Then we said a Chinese made 300B or 211 amplifier is better than the Mark Levinson. Or sending the Wavacs 833 to drive dumb shits like Wilson Alexandria X2 with difficult loading. Then we conclude the 833 sucks. With a damping factor of 1, there is no way high current tube amp can control the Wilson or those fancy coffins looking Kharma speaker.
I rather listen to a system that is well tuned that can truly showcasing of the components' capability.
It's really my pleasure to have so many experienced AE fellows especially Mr. Tsang who has such good knowledge in tubes to visit my place last Saturday. For those who joined the party already knew what had happened there, I don’t want to mentioned anything here to avoid triggering arguments. Let’s wait for PT's objective report.
WChow,
I put 4 Telefunken 802S in PRT1 and a pair of BIC Genalex KT88 in 833, the improvement is far beyond you can imagine. Try to find them, you won’t be regret.
Mr So, your coke bottle Genelex KT88 is a rare find, I have not seen one before, the tone color of your 833 is one of a kind with this KT88 in place. If I can find a few of these tubes, I will search for a better KT88 amp for my Alpha 1, PP300B is not powerful enough for the Cessaro.
This is probably the most difficult report for me to deliver. To cut a long story short, Wavac HE 833 users felt they had beaten the Takumi last Saturday. The Takumi on Saturday was “underperformed”. The amplifier behaved completely different from the performance when it was driving the Cessaro Alpha One and subsequently the Beta 0.5 system that many had already listened. A few days before the comparison, DSo sent me quite a few SMS informing me his hard works spent on tuning his system to perfection. There is one of the SMS that he sent over to me one week: “Robert dosen’t need to be humble. His amp is one of the best I ever heard.” DSo had once auditioned the Takumi driving the Alpha One about one month ago.
Before we connected to the Takumi, we spent about half an hour playing various kind of music on the full Wavac suite. I could immediately feel DSo had put tremendous effort to beautify his system because I had never heard piano sounding natural enough to my taste in his setup. Not on Sat. It flows naturally. The forcefulness is gone. There is a sense of recessed but nevertheless engaging feeling on the overall atmosphere. DSo told us he tunes his system to the favor of classical music. The sense of relaxation is thus very important. I also listened to a track of Diana Krall Live in Paris. Mark felt the female vocal is very engaging but timid on the overall rhythm – a bit recessed in his description which is similar to my own observation. Later on, I played some of the recordings that recommended by Fat Gor – “Sarah Machlahlian Afterglow Live” performing “Angel” on track 10. I did not finish the song because I felt the voice lacks control on the upper high frequency. It was kind of dark. The live recording feeling is not as strong as it should be (I watched the video of the concert that comes with the CD.) I moved on to play track 4 of “Chage and Aska – Unplugged Live”. I had the same feeling of darkening of the upper high frequency region. There is a strong sense of “weight” on the mid-bass which somewhat drags down the overall tempo. DSo, please take my comments positively. I do know you intentionally tune the overall system to the favor of classical music.
We then switched to the Takumi. I remember the first track played on the Takumi was from Mark’s Jazz recording. In my sitting position, I felt the speed of the entire spectrum has come back. At the same time, most felt the dynamic range has reduced, soundstage collapsed and the mid-range had become thinner. We then connected a ground wire from the Tripoint Troy to the Takumi. It was better but the dynamic problem did not resolve. At the moment of pondering what was going on in my hand, it was the most unfortunate that my wife called me all of a sudden demanding me to return home immediately because she had forgotten to bring the Key!! I left in an extreme hurry.
During my trip back home, DSo called me to bring the Tron Syren Black Label because he felt the Takumi had no edge over the Wavac 833 if a matching preamp does not exist. I refuted this idea at that time because my wife was very angry on the phone, which is understandable because the maid inside my home did not open the door. Even I became worried because my son was inside the home too. And she had been ringing the door bell for 30 minutes! Under this kind of circumstances, I knew I simply cannot go straight without comforting her and start doing things related to audio again. When the mess was cleared up, I took taxi back to DSo’s home. I then received another SMS from Marvel, “Takumi needs help”.
When I returned, Marvel told me that they had just compared a recording on Cello and another recording by Paravotti. In both occasions Marvel and other felt the lower-mid bass was missing when driven by Takumi. As a result, the body of the vocal and the cello was thinned out. “During my one hour absence, I did not know what other recordings were being tested. Marvel may want to describe what happened during this period.” I could feel they felt the match was finished at 5pm. DSo commented the Takumi does not have enough power to drive the speakers but I respectfully disagree because his crossover is exactly the same as mine. The bass unit and the treble are exactly the same as mine too. Anyway, that was not the time for me to counter-argue because I don’t know until I can logically figure out what causes the Takumi to behave abnormally on Sat. But that was really not the case in my own system.
In the last hour, Robert set up his DAC (without an active preamp) going directly to the Takumi in current mode showcasing some real 24/96hz recordings. I actually felt the Diana Krall 24/96 recordings played well with tremendous resolution and the tempo. Again, the group felt the absence of an active preamp is a problem.
Jlam was totally in a mode of disbelief as he just heard the Takumi driving the Beta 0.5 (also the Alpha One) with flying color. Next morning, we looked for technical assistance from Uncle Ray to resolve the puzzles. I hope Ray could throw in his view to enlighten us later on. Also, Mr.Zanden came again on Monday afternoon for an excellent 2 hour sessions with the Takumi driving the Beta 0.5 too.
Once again I am thankful of DSo always being an excellent host. For me and Robert, we had fun and learnt a great deal.
Wow! What an entertaining Saturday afternoon! High End audio is about mix and match. We shouldn't be surprised by the results. Also, surprises creates questions. That will lead us to explore and learn more.
I must condemn PT for not thoroughly researching the output/input impedance compatibility between the preamplifier and the amplifier. I believe this is your professional job. This is not a black science. It can be explained electrically. Many so-called experts just do the matching of preamp/power amp by trial and error. They end up reaching the wrong verdict and fooled themselves into new dimension of belief.
I owned the 833 and the PR-T1 for 3 years. I knew them well. One must understand the output impedance of the PR-T1. The RCA output is not transformer coupled. It has a small coupling capacitor. At the XLR output, there is one small transformer at both output channels. What does it really mean? At the RCA output, the output impedance is very high. At low frequencies between 100hz to 200hz, the output impedance of the RCA can go up to as high as over 10,000ohm.
Then the input impedance of the Takumi is only 30K versus 100K for the HE833. At 80hz, divide 10,000 ohm (output impedance of the preamp) by 100,000 (input impedance of the amp) – a ratio of 1:10 is achieved. If we divide 10,000ohm by 30,000ohm, then the ratio fell to 1:3! What the hell is exactly happening? We have to understand what makes a good pre/power matching ultimately depends on the “Ratio of Preamp Output Impedance and Input impedance of the power amp”. If this ratio can remain constant at all frequencies, then we have an excellent match. What happened on Saturday was likely to be: When the amplifier calls for low frequencies, the output impedance of the Wavac PR-T1 started rising AND the input impedance of the Takumi begins falling. The end result is the thinning of the mid range, reduction of soundstage dimensionality, and the worst of all –killing dynamic at all frequencies.
If you guys had used the XLR output of the Wavac PR-T1 on Saturday, the result could have changed quite dramatically though the quality of the output transformer will probably far below than those used by Tron, my own speculation only. Electrically speaking, if there is an output transformer coupling at the output of the preamp, it automatically communicates with the input transformer of the amp. In this case, the Takumi’s receiving end has input transformers. In the Beta system where PT was using the Tron Syren black label featuring exotic core output transformer, it thus matches ideally with the input transformers. To be exact, the ratio of the output impedance of the preamp and the input impedance of the power amp will remain much more constant because they always go up and go down at the same time.
Then those horny speakers probably start rolling off at 80-100hz. An absolutely disastrous impedance mismatch will only magnify the lack of body at the 80-100hz region. When you guys switched back to the 833, there was no more problem. The body comes back in a big way. Please take a look at the following scientific measurement of the Wavac 833 done by Stereophile many years ago:
“What is subjectively important is the 833's behaviour in the bass. There is a bass boost. The amount of which depends on the output transformer tap, the source impedance, and the load impedance. In the worst case, 4 ohm tap into 16 ohms, the boost reaches 9dB between 80Hz and 160Hz, while in the best case, 8 ohm tap into 2 ohms, there is a broad plateau 2dB high between 30Hz and 200Hz. With our simulated loudspeaker load, the high source impedance and exaggerated low frequencies produce a well-defined, 10dB peak at the woofer's resonant frequency.”
A 5db-9db boost in the region between 80hz and 160hz would make up the short fall of horny speakers’ fast bass roll off problems. But some horn speakers are designed to locate near the rear wall to get more room gain for more bass extension. That means the use of 833 driving the horn speakers close to the rear wall, I suspect, the bass lack speeds and sound muddy. This can easily be verified on most piano recordings. The cello will probably sound big with a dimension of the double bass. Pavarotti will have an enormous chest. Again, there is about matching. There is no right or wrong. When the 833 was serving me, I played big orchestra and opera scores all the time because the characteristic of the 833 will drive you to listen to this kind of music. I never listen to Mr. Children with the 833 because it can’t play those because it lacks speed at lower frequency and agility of the upper treble is too slow. Forget Sarah Maclahlian’s voice because it can never be right.
I am hesitant to write this article because if you guys don’t follow, I don’t want someone speak at my back accusing me of lecturing bullshits. But this is really none of my business as I don’t care what kind of wars out there. The reason I am writing here is to give PT a lesson on preamp/power amp matching because he should know and he must know. I don’t subscribe to the usual defense lines such as “listening is believing” without understanding the underlying acoustics/electrical parameters. I am a thinker, not a believer.
What you guys could really conclude is the fruitful result of the owner’s effort in taming the 833 paring with horn speakers because it is fundamentally difficult – and very frankly not a wise match which I had already explained scientifically. On certain music, that’s great as I went through the same hardships for 2 years. Credit must be given to where it deserves. Looking at the picture, I can see the 833’s energy can fill up your entire room. That feels good. Aren’t they?
To VR, if everyone can learn something new and constructive from such gathering, I don’t think it is fair to say they were doing soap opera. PT – please don’t call me so early in the morning again. I hope my writing clears some clouds. I am not defending for any one or any brand. I felt you guys should know what you had done and make the correct meaning out of it. Truth seeking is always my spirit.
What an impressive article! I certainly don't feel you are talking bullshits. I am learning as much as I can each time you speak. The measurements of the 833 by Stereophile are facts that can't be denied. That's probably the nature of the 833 tubes more than the circuit design. Now, I can fully reconcile why I always like playing opera and Mahler symphony with the T1/833 combo.
The coloration at the bottom end up to the lower mid range of human vocal is fairly significant. But we may like this coloration. Probably we all do to a certain degree. You have explained everything well. And I always like your "don't care approach".
Thanks for the technical explanation which has released me from the puzzle in the past few days after attending the listening session on Sat....I came without any psychological preparation that the Takumi would sound so different in PT's place than in DSo's place. Obviously the preamp matching with power amp science to me is just whether they have both the RCA and XLR inputs and outputs...and the slightly more complex thing for me is the 2-hot or 3-hot in the XLR termination, that is. Never have I known about this input impedance matching and the ratio that you mentioned....thanks a lot and it is really a golden lesson. Likewise the 80-200Hz bass boost in 833 can also help explaining why I always feel the mid to mid bass is more impactful but a bit deliberate...
Uncle Ray, I connected the Tidal suite tonight with the Cessaro...I listen for about 2 hours already...The amp suite surprisingly match with the speaker and does not cause any overdamping situation...I recall my AudioValve Baldur was not mating well with the Eufrodite while I hear much better performance by the Eufrodite in other's system. The explanation then was the Baldur is having a very high damping factor....but can you help to provide some objective analysis on how Tidal suite match with a horn speaker like Cessaro??? From a listening perspective, it has speed, transient, clarity and transparency..most important of all, bass harmonics are not sucked away although comparatively speaking less abundant than the 805Mk2.
I can see you are maximixing room gain by locating the horny speakers almost completely to the rear wall. This way, you will get the SLAM/PRAT factor. But the choice of amplifier is crucial. The 805 has no articial bass boost like the 833. You should have quite a decent balance, I speculate, notwithstanding the size of the room.
Since I do not know the size of your room, but on the Tidal website, it shows the Impact stereo has a damping factor of >200 measured at 8 ohm at frequency 100hz (upper bass region or lower mid range). The damping factor maintains at over 200 measured at 8 ohm at frequency 10hz (deep deep bass region, most of our room do not allow for the completion of bass wave length at 70hz). The control of the impact is excellent from technical perspective as the damping factor can remain constant as low frequency travels from 100hz to 10hz.
Now, the room comes into play. If you have a small room, the use of the impact stereo amp with Horn speaker may help you to clean up the bass because the control at 100hz is rated with a damping factor of over 200 versus “1” for Wavac. Wavac’s damping factor is extremely low, almost different from no control from technical perspective. I suspect in a big room, the use of the Impact Stereo with this speaker may render a feeling of inadequate lower mid-bass energy especially compared against with the extreme opposite of the Wavac with very low damping factor.
I suspect you have much cleaner bass than before; energy-wise, may be not as abundant as before but in the context of your room, the impact may even help a little bit. (I can rest reassure you that the Impact Mono-bloc is perhaps 10 times better than the Stereo.) Jeff from Taiwan may want to say something in this aspect.
One of my strongest struggles and challenges in the past decade is to understand “control”. Without control, the impactful feeling will always be greater than with control. This is human psychology. We want to relax and we don’t want the sound to be over-tightened and over-damped. The Wavac was truly sensational in this aspect during his service to me. As I progress and understand control more, the lower-mid bass region is always the subject of controversies. Tubes such as 845, 211, 805, 833 – they all have inherent distortions in different areas. Very skillful match with the system is required or you will keep running in circle.
The only way to find out more is to follow what Mr.Zanden does – listen to concert more. Get a true perspective and contrasts the experiences of what you listened in your room.
Comments
This is purely for entertainment and the conclusions (if there is any out of such exercise) are likely to be fault. This is no different from bringing an Mark Levinson flagship amp to drive the Algame. Then we said a Chinese made 300B or 211 amplifier is better than the Mark Levinson. Or sending the Wavacs 833 to drive dumb shits like Wilson Alexandria X2 with difficult loading. Then we conclude the 833 sucks. With a damping factor of 1, there is no way high current tube amp can control the Wilson or those fancy coffins looking Kharma speaker.
I rather listen to a system that is well tuned that can truly showcasing of the components' capability.
Hi End soap opera - good for fun.
Although you are right, I do this kind of "soap opera" all the time in Taiwan. We always learn something out of it.
Jeff
WChow,
I put 4 Telefunken 802S in PRT1 and a pair of BIC Genalex KT88 in 833, the improvement is far beyond you can imagine. Try to find them, you won’t be regret.
Before we connected to the Takumi, we spent about half an hour playing various kind of music on the full Wavac suite. I could immediately feel DSo had put tremendous effort to beautify his system because I had never heard piano sounding natural enough to my taste in his setup. Not on Sat. It flows naturally. The forcefulness is gone. There is a sense of recessed but nevertheless engaging feeling on the overall atmosphere. DSo told us he tunes his system to the favor of classical music. The sense of relaxation is thus very important. I also listened to a track of Diana Krall Live in Paris. Mark felt the female vocal is very engaging but timid on the overall rhythm – a bit recessed in his description which is similar to my own observation. Later on, I played some of the recordings that recommended by Fat Gor – “Sarah Machlahlian Afterglow Live” performing “Angel” on track 10. I did not finish the song because I felt the voice lacks control on the upper high frequency. It was kind of dark. The live recording feeling is not as strong as it should be (I watched the video of the concert that comes with the CD.) I moved on to play track 4 of “Chage and Aska – Unplugged Live”. I had the same feeling of darkening of the upper high frequency region. There is a strong sense of “weight” on the mid-bass which somewhat drags down the overall tempo. DSo, please take my comments positively. I do know you intentionally tune the overall system to the favor of classical music.
We then switched to the Takumi. I remember the first track played on the Takumi was from Mark’s Jazz recording. In my sitting position, I felt the speed of the entire spectrum has come back. At the same time, most felt the dynamic range has reduced, soundstage collapsed and the mid-range had become thinner. We then connected a ground wire from the Tripoint Troy to the Takumi. It was better but the dynamic problem did not resolve. At the moment of pondering what was going on in my hand, it was the most unfortunate that my wife called me all of a sudden demanding me to return home immediately because she had forgotten to bring the Key!! I left in an extreme hurry.
During my trip back home, DSo called me to bring the Tron Syren Black Label because he felt the Takumi had no edge over the Wavac 833 if a matching preamp does not exist. I refuted this idea at that time because my wife was very angry on the phone, which is understandable because the maid inside my home did not open the door. Even I became worried because my son was inside the home too. And she had been ringing the door bell for 30 minutes! Under this kind of circumstances, I knew I simply cannot go straight without comforting her and start doing things related to audio again. When the mess was cleared up, I took taxi back to DSo’s home. I then received another SMS from Marvel, “Takumi needs help”.
When I returned, Marvel told me that they had just compared a recording on Cello and another recording by Paravotti. In both occasions Marvel and other felt the lower-mid bass was missing when driven by Takumi. As a result, the body of the vocal and the cello was thinned out. “During my one hour absence, I did not know what other recordings were being tested. Marvel may want to describe what happened during this period.” I could feel they felt the match was finished at 5pm. DSo commented the Takumi does not have enough power to drive the speakers but I respectfully disagree because his crossover is exactly the same as mine. The bass unit and the treble are exactly the same as mine too. Anyway, that was not the time for me to counter-argue because I don’t know until I can logically figure out what causes the Takumi to behave abnormally on Sat. But that was really not the case in my own system.
In the last hour, Robert set up his DAC (without an active preamp) going directly to the Takumi in current mode showcasing some real 24/96hz recordings. I actually felt the Diana Krall 24/96 recordings played well with tremendous resolution and the tempo. Again, the group felt the absence of an active preamp is a problem.
Jlam was totally in a mode of disbelief as he just heard the Takumi driving the Beta 0.5 (also the Alpha One) with flying color. Next morning, we looked for technical assistance from Uncle Ray to resolve the puzzles. I hope Ray could throw in his view to enlighten us later on. Also, Mr.Zanden came again on Monday afternoon for an excellent 2 hour sessions with the Takumi driving the Beta 0.5 too.
Once again I am thankful of DSo always being an excellent host. For me and Robert, we had fun and learnt a great deal.
I owned the 833 and the PR-T1 for 3 years. I knew them well. One must understand the output impedance of the PR-T1. The RCA output is not transformer coupled. It has a small coupling capacitor. At the XLR output, there is one small transformer at both output channels. What does it really mean? At the RCA output, the output impedance is very high. At low frequencies between 100hz to 200hz, the output impedance of the RCA can go up to as high as over 10,000ohm.
Then the input impedance of the Takumi is only 30K versus 100K for the HE833. At 80hz, divide 10,000 ohm (output impedance of the preamp) by 100,000 (input impedance of the amp) – a ratio of 1:10 is achieved. If we divide 10,000ohm by 30,000ohm, then the ratio fell to 1:3! What the hell is exactly happening? We have to understand what makes a good pre/power matching ultimately depends on the “Ratio of Preamp Output Impedance and Input impedance of the power amp”. If this ratio can remain constant at all frequencies, then we have an excellent match. What happened on Saturday was likely to be: When the amplifier calls for low frequencies, the output impedance of the Wavac PR-T1 started rising AND the input impedance of the Takumi begins falling. The end result is the thinning of the mid range, reduction of soundstage dimensionality, and the worst of all –killing dynamic at all frequencies.
If you guys had used the XLR output of the Wavac PR-T1 on Saturday, the result could have changed quite dramatically though the quality of the output transformer will probably far below than those used by Tron, my own speculation only. Electrically speaking, if there is an output transformer coupling at the output of the preamp, it automatically communicates with the input transformer of the amp. In this case, the Takumi’s receiving end has input transformers. In the Beta system where PT was using the Tron Syren black label featuring exotic core output transformer, it thus matches ideally with the input transformers. To be exact, the ratio of the output impedance of the preamp and the input impedance of the power amp will remain much more constant because they always go up and go down at the same time.
Then those horny speakers probably start rolling off at 80-100hz. An absolutely disastrous impedance mismatch will only magnify the lack of body at the 80-100hz region. When you guys switched back to the 833, there was no more problem. The body comes back in a big way. Please take a look at the following scientific measurement of the Wavac 833 done by Stereophile many years ago:
“What is subjectively important is the 833's behaviour in the bass. There is a bass boost. The amount of which depends on the output transformer tap, the source impedance, and the load impedance. In the worst case, 4 ohm tap into 16 ohms, the boost reaches 9dB between 80Hz and 160Hz, while in the best case, 8 ohm tap into 2 ohms, there is a broad plateau 2dB high between 30Hz and 200Hz. With our simulated loudspeaker load, the high source impedance and exaggerated low frequencies produce a well-defined, 10dB peak at the woofer's resonant frequency.”
A 5db-9db boost in the region between 80hz and 160hz would make up the short fall of horny speakers’ fast bass roll off problems. But some horn speakers are designed to locate near the rear wall to get more room gain for more bass extension. That means the use of 833 driving the horn speakers close to the rear wall, I suspect, the bass lack speeds and sound muddy. This can easily be verified on most piano recordings. The cello will probably sound big with a dimension of the double bass. Pavarotti will have an enormous chest. Again, there is about matching. There is no right or wrong. When the 833 was serving me, I played big orchestra and opera scores all the time because the characteristic of the 833 will drive you to listen to this kind of music. I never listen to Mr. Children with the 833 because it can’t play those because it lacks speed at lower frequency and agility of the upper treble is too slow. Forget Sarah Maclahlian’s voice because it can never be right.
I am hesitant to write this article because if you guys don’t follow, I don’t want someone speak at my back accusing me of lecturing bullshits. But this is really none of my business as I don’t care what kind of wars out there. The reason I am writing here is to give PT a lesson on preamp/power amp matching because he should know and he must know. I don’t subscribe to the usual defense lines such as “listening is believing” without understanding the underlying acoustics/electrical parameters. I am a thinker, not a believer.
What you guys could really conclude is the fruitful result of the owner’s effort in taming the 833 paring with horn speakers because it is fundamentally difficult – and very frankly not a wise match which I had already explained scientifically. On certain music, that’s great as I went through the same hardships for 2 years. Credit must be given to where it deserves. Looking at the picture, I can see the 833’s energy can fill up your entire room. That feels good. Aren’t they?
To VR, if everyone can learn something new and constructive from such gathering, I don’t think it is fair to say they were doing soap opera. PT – please don’t call me so early in the morning again. I hope my writing clears some clouds. I am not defending for any one or any brand. I felt you guys should know what you had done and make the correct meaning out of it. Truth seeking is always my spirit.
I have read your latest response a few times. It is logically presented without bias. Who can really challenge your credentials?
What an impressive article! I certainly don't feel you are talking bullshits. I am learning as much as I can each time you speak. The measurements of the 833 by Stereophile are facts that can't be denied. That's probably the nature of the 833 tubes more than the circuit design. Now, I can fully reconcile why I always like playing opera and Mahler symphony with the T1/833 combo.
The coloration at the bottom end up to the lower mid range of human vocal is fairly significant. But we may like this coloration. Probably we all do to a certain degree. You have explained everything well. And I always like your "don't care approach".
Thanks for the technical explanation which has released me from the puzzle in the past few days after attending the listening session on Sat....I came without any psychological preparation that the Takumi would sound so different in PT's place than in DSo's place. Obviously the preamp matching with power amp science to me is just whether they have both the RCA and XLR inputs and outputs...and the slightly more complex thing for me is the 2-hot or 3-hot in the XLR termination, that is. Never have I known about this input impedance matching and the ratio that you mentioned....thanks a lot and it is really a golden lesson. Likewise the 80-200Hz bass boost in 833 can also help explaining why I always feel the mid to mid bass is more impactful but a bit deliberate...
Uncle Ray, I connected the Tidal suite tonight with the Cessaro...I listen for about 2 hours already...The amp suite surprisingly match with the speaker and does not cause any overdamping situation...I recall my AudioValve Baldur was not mating well with the Eufrodite while I hear much better performance by the Eufrodite in other's system. The explanation then was the Baldur is having a very high damping factor....but can you help to provide some objective analysis on how Tidal suite match with a horn speaker like Cessaro??? From a listening perspective, it has speed, transient, clarity and transparency..most important of all, bass harmonics are not sucked away although comparatively speaking less abundant than the 805Mk2.
Please advise.
Marvel
I can see you are maximixing room gain by locating the horny speakers almost completely to the rear wall. This way, you will get the SLAM/PRAT factor. But the choice of amplifier is crucial. The 805 has no articial bass boost like the 833. You should have quite a decent balance, I speculate, notwithstanding the size of the room.
Since I do not know the size of your room, but on the Tidal website, it shows the Impact stereo has a damping factor of >200 measured at 8 ohm at frequency 100hz (upper bass region or lower mid range). The damping factor maintains at over 200 measured at 8 ohm at frequency 10hz (deep deep bass region, most of our room do not allow for the completion of bass wave length at 70hz). The control of the impact is excellent from technical perspective as the damping factor can remain constant as low frequency travels from 100hz to 10hz.
Now, the room comes into play. If you have a small room, the use of the impact stereo amp with Horn speaker may help you to clean up the bass because the control at 100hz is rated with a damping factor of over 200 versus “1” for Wavac. Wavac’s damping factor is extremely low, almost different from no control from technical perspective. I suspect in a big room, the use of the Impact Stereo with this speaker may render a feeling of inadequate lower mid-bass energy especially compared against with the extreme opposite of the Wavac with very low damping factor.
I suspect you have much cleaner bass than before; energy-wise, may be not as abundant as before but in the context of your room, the impact may even help a little bit. (I can rest reassure you that the Impact Mono-bloc is perhaps 10 times better than the Stereo.) Jeff from Taiwan may want to say something in this aspect.
One of my strongest struggles and challenges in the past decade is to understand “control”. Without control, the impactful feeling will always be greater than with control. This is human psychology. We want to relax and we don’t want the sound to be over-tightened and over-damped. The Wavac was truly sensational in this aspect during his service to me. As I progress and understand control more, the lower-mid bass region is always the subject of controversies. Tubes such as 845, 211, 805, 833 – they all have inherent distortions in different areas. Very skillful match with the system is required or you will keep running in circle.
The only way to find out more is to follow what Mr.Zanden does – listen to concert more. Get a true perspective and contrasts the experiences of what you listened in your room.