Thanks for your sharing, I'm gratified to see my passion on hi-fi and the importance of room acoustics has touched certain part of you, hopefully other silent readers too.
I started to use many different types of room tuning gadgets since 1990 and not until 2005 I was able to really learn from 2 of my hi-fi mentors what room acoustics is and how to do room treatments step by step.
Although many learned acoustic engineers think they have adequate knowledge of room acoustics because they see it as science and use electronic apparatus to measure room frequency response, then treat the measured anomalies and think it's work done. If audio life is that simple, we all can save time and money (or the other way round ) by choosing speakers and amps with the perfect measurements, right.
In reality, many of us realise we lack the knowledge or knowhow on what actual parameters we should actually use to measure 'good sound'. The only realistic and reliable measurements are listening skills of a small handful of people with so-called 'golden ears'. But in my experience, majority of those 'golden ears' don't have the know-how to tweak a system and to make it sing in a properly treated room. This is the REALITY !
I often (but always try to avoid) offend many audio buffs by making a statement most mega hi-fi systems sound rubbish to my ears due to users' inability to optimise the huge system (speakers primarily) with the room. All you need to check this claim is to go to M.O.C. or H.K. high-end show. To be fair, mega systems are permanently set up in the domestic dwellings of their proud owners. Nearly all mega systems I have head exhibit poor imaging (caused by phase problem) and ill defined bass (caused by phase problem too).
What is room acoustics ? Sound travels through air, that's why you can hear sound next to you or from far away like for instance, sound of a trumpet played by someone over 30/40 meters away (that's why musicians playing horns and trumpets in a concert are placed at the back of an orchestra while listeners in the front rows sitting at least 5-10 metres away can hear the impressive dynamic sound and audience in the middle or rear of the concert hall who are sitting much farther away can still hear these woodwinds pretty clearly but with much lesser dynamics. The room treatment gadgets placed nearest to the speakers usually have the biggest influence/effect to 'change' the sound of your system and then followed by those behind and in front of the speakers, and so forth. Not to mention reflection as well as sound escaping through the corridor, open rooms, bathrooms/toilets, kitchen and balcony etc. Unless you design and are able to build your listening room like a mini concert hall in the right proportion to your speakers, then the sound of your system will inevitably be influenced by your room acoustics especially the undesired effects mentioned above.
Now I'm writing something that many if not most of you don't fully understand/appreciate. What is sound reflection ? What does sound reflection sound like ? Well I can honestly tell you I could hardly detect/recognise sound reflections (at certain frequencies) until I met my 2 hi-fi mentors and they taught me how to. But just like learning to play a musical instrument where one needs to practice daily over a long period of time before one can play music or certain pieces of music well. From not being able to discern undesirable sound reflections to detecting and eventually treating/tackling them, this process took over 10 years. That's why when I visit fellow audiophile's den (I seldom do that I hasten to add), I politely inform them certain obvious sound anomalies, they say they could not hear it until sometimes I'm able to rectify it, then they could discern this afterwards. So dear hi-fi comrades, if you don't hear any undesirable sound effects in your room, I'm very happy for you. But if you can and if you are determined to tackle it with whatever it takes, then it'll be a long journey but making corrections are better than not doing anything.
As I have lots of free time these days, I have taken a new interest of browsing numerous sites on FB which showcase pretty/expensive/huge hi-fi systems in their owners' listening/living rooms. What I notice is over half of these rooms don't have any room treatment and they mostly have large windows/bay windows, therefore, one can imagine what these systems sound like.
KFM, I think I understand fully what you're going through, probably more than any person in this audio world. I have used the Cessaro Alpha One for a number of years and I have heard the big subs plus I have seen pictures of your listening room when you originally posted them on this forum.
The Alpha with its tremendous efficiency is like a stallion, they are big and powerful and need to be tamed in order to perform their best. One can use a little bit of imagination Cessaro horns (esp the large ones ) are like Bucephalus, the legendary stallion of Alexander the Great that nobody could tame until Alexander was able to by understanding this stallion was always in distress whenever it saw its own shadow. After taming Bucephalus, it became Alexander's best fighting buddy.
More to my point, the Alpha and its built-in passive 16" woofers are difficult to tame. One usually choose single-ended amp to drive them but in almost all cases, the bass is a tad slow and unable to integrate with the lightning fast mid-range driver seamlessly. If the listening room is not properly treated, the listener will hear (or may not be able to) tremendous sound reflections and bass problems. Your active Rachmaninov subs may also be difficult to integrate with Alpha's bass.
After reading your comments carefully, I think you can hear abovementioned sound and room acoustic anomalies. I'm sure you have resorted to using many room treatment gadgets to tame the Alpha and you are still not fully satisfied. Well, there's a saying : "If you don't succeed, try and try again". After owning my Cessaro horns for so many years, I'm still tweaking (very fine tuning to be truthful) my room acoustics almost everyday. If you do not need (perhaps without realising the necessity) to tweak your room acoustics everytime you switch playing from CD to LP or vice versa except by simply turning up/down the volume control, then it's a blessing in disguise as you are satisfied (a bit of sarcasm intended) with the sound from both sources. Apart from the output level of CD and LP (cartridge and phono), the dynamic response of both sources (streaming medium included) will be very different i.e. one will either have more or less energy than the other, so the bass and /or highs will extend more or less..........
As many of you guys are avid readers on this forum, you can see AE has employed many different types of room treatment tools over the years, this is a true and natural progression as certain room tuning tools are clearly better than others. So dear hi-fi comrades, I suggest you keep following their methods as many of you clearly hear the improvement in room acoustics of their showrooms.
KFM, please reach out to Chris to contact me, I'm sure I will be delighted to meet with fellow Cessaro users.
Good day to all you hi-fi browsers out there, perhaps your main interest is to search for better hi-fi hardware (power cords, cables, vibration control gadgets, then electronics in random order) that really work to improve the sound of your system.
I'm fully certain most of these items (esp. those recommended on this forum) will work wonderfully because of the real sonic improvement they bring. If you have read my previous write-ups here and still remember what I said about room acoustic treatment, then you may recall the analogy I made - anyone can taste the difference when you continue to add better wine, one after the other, even in a paper cup, however, if you are a discerning wine buff, you will notice an unpleasant after taste which is not present if you drink wine from a proper wine glass, if you don't believe me, just buy 3 different bottles of wine with each costing twice as much if you don't know what to choose.
If you have been following my comments here on room acoustics since May and some of them have resonated with you, then perhaps there is something deep in your heart you know, perhaps not knowing how, there is another important factor to take into serious account, in the realms of ultimate/proper hi-fi reproduction.
I mentioned earlier I have a lot of free time (honestly, nothing is free in this world, free time = aging if you sit on your bum doing bugger all instead of doing something constructive) these days after my retirement, I have taken up a not very time consuming interest of browsing pictures of lots of hi-fi systems (large and small) in domestic environment. I would like to share some of them with you below.
Please bear with me just a wee bit longer............ What are the qualities to look for from a system as a whole, it's the sum of the equipment one has chosen/matched and its sound effect in a room (large, medium or small). A good hi-fi system in my dictionary/yardstick, which is similar but often different to a concert event should posses the following qualities : correct tonality - this means the voice, the instrument should sound like the singer and the musical instrument in the recording; harmonic decay - this is present in natural sound; space and image - this is most difficult to reproduce as it requires firstly the technique of the recording engineer plus hi-fi enthusiast's ability to reproduce this; palpable image and soundstage - these are absent in a live concert but these are what most hi-fi enthusiasts get hooked on, it's like salt and flavouring in any good tasting dish; micro and macro dynamics - this is where live and recorded music CONVERGE and makes listener immediately get engaged in his/her listening; overall stress free sound - whether you play it at normal or pretty loud sound level.
Let's start browsing some home equipments, the purpose is not to criticise but to make one aware of how to really improve the sound if PROPER sound acoustic treatments are made.
These speakers (retail price I was told over US$ 160k !) matche well with this typical British living room - I used to listen then Linn flagship Isobarik speakers in the late 1970s. Sound should be warm with thick carpet. One may be able to improve the sound by placing speakers father away from the wall and install room treatment panels etc plus the sidewalls (not forgeting the back well behind the listener especially if it's very near).
In contrast to previous room, this one has a fantastic view with massive sliding window doors and shiny hard surface. The sound will be rather cold and hard.
This is a neat and tidy setup surrounded possibly by bare walls, so may be highly affected by sound reflections all over the place.
This is probably a modern European apartment with its hi-fi owner enjoying large and tall soundstage plus view, image will probably be blurred and sound is hard.
A good looking horn system but those glass panels probably kill the sound.
Oh, I find it hard to believe why some people like to place their super high-end speakers by the windows.
Can you see the speakers in this room !
Talking about tall and big rooms, this one looks most eye catching to me, just look at those glass towers and gigantic windows.
Back to reality, this room has stone wall and floor but with wooden side walls, so you have a combo of very different tonality.
This high-end system is probably in the Far East with its proud owner I suspect enjoys AV reproduction over high fidelity sound. I speculate with zero room treatment and probably thick curtain on the left to absorb severe glass reflection, the left and right channel will have very different tonality and probably imbalance sound as 50% of the system energy will slip out to the huge corridor on the right, that's why huge subs are needed to impress the owner and his affluent friends.
An old fashion way of partial sound treatment with floor-to-ceiling bass trap, sound I suspect will lack harmonic decay and musicality.
Finally, we have emperor's and empress' seat. I think this system is enjoyed by lovers. Notice the corner bass trap (also absorb all low frequency details) but the glass windows are detrimental to imaging, soundstage and harmonic decay.
Well, there you have it, after seeing a small number of selected pictures by me, I suspect majority of hi-fi enthusiasts pay very little attention to room acoustic treatment , therefore, my friends, please ask yourself and mark the sonic performance of your beloved hi-fi system, using my abovementioned parameters, with brutal honesty, how does it fare ?
That's why I do not like and seldom do, visit hi-fi showrooms as well as fellow hi-fi comrades' home in case they ask for my comments, because, in most cases, the truth hurts, especially one's pride....because in my experience, owners of high performance system are people of some social standing, high achievers if you like and they can't accept criticism on things they think they understand but actually, they don't. Food for thought, as a retiree and with no new income, my wife once asked me what to do with upgrades (hi-fi) in the future, I replied, I now have everything I want/need except money.
Truth to tell, if you have lots of dough and can easily acquire a super hi-fi system in a heart beat, I guess the system will score very low marks using my yardstick because you have neither the experience nor the time to make it sing. If you are in the minority of those who have worked very hard to assemble a musical (valve-based) system with proper/very fine room treatment, then you'll probably be like me, feel totally satisfied with the sound of your system as well as feeling truly blessed !
My trip to HK has come to the end and We are awaiting our flight back. It ended up being a bit busier than expected. So maybe we will meet at a more convenient time.
Just picking up on a few interesting things you mentioned:
correct tonality- this means the voice, the instrument should sound like the singer and the musical instrument in the recording;
My guess would be accurate low frequency management (placement and volume of low frequency absorption).
1. Ive experienced that placement of the devices are important in reference to the area in which there is the most problem. 2. Making sure the device addresses the frequency which is problematic is also another variable. 3. Volume of bass absorption - my experience has been when you first apply it, it has an overwhelming effect and your judgment is clouded. Most of the time, its too much. The over time, one would remove bit by bit and re experiment to attain the most suitable compromise in accordance to ones listening ability.
harmonic decay - this is present in natural sound;
Again Im guessing this will be reverb times in the room.
This will be related to amount of absorption of all frequencies but mainly related to low frequency again as it has the longest waves.
Mids and highs again will depend on the amount of reflections which pollute the direct sound from your speakers. I guess that's why glass, carpets, concrete walls and wood floors will have various tonal effects that may or may not be beneficial to our perceived sound.
space and image - this is most difficult to reproduce as it requires firstly the technique of the recording engineer plus hi-fi enthusiast's ability to reproduce this;
We have heard about no walls in the room. Absorption of unwanted bass nodes, enough scattering and or diffusion of mids and highs. Enough is arbitrary because these same things will affect palpability, imaging, soundstage.
palpable image and soundstage - these are absent in a live concert but these are what most hi-fi enthusiasts get hooked on, it's like salt and flavouring in any good tasting dish;
not one of my strong points or more accurately, my forte. This can be tiring for me every time I listen to music. So, I just need it to be relaxing without being overly critical and clinical.
micro and macro dynamics - this is where live and recorded music CONVERGE and makes listener immediately get engaged in his/her listening;
This I have been discussing locally with close friends about tuning. Love this aspect as it has allowed the dynamics to overcome some of the problems with a small, squarish room.
overall stress free sound - whether you play it at normal or pretty loud sound level.
And rightfully placed and said, all the above will give you an overall stress free sound.
Mr Z, please share more. Im learning. SO far its about what the problem is, why is it happening and how can it be overcome for me. Im open to feedback and criticism.
My journey is long winded as Im challenged for time. I accept this as part of the fun and the proverbial race to audio nirvana in which im happy and accept that I will not stand on the podium.
Comments
Room acoustic treatment - An inconvenient truth
These speakers (retail price I was told over US$ 160k !) matche well with this typical British living room - I used to listen then Linn flagship Isobarik speakers in the late 1970s. Sound should be warm with thick carpet. One may be able to improve the sound by placing speakers father away from the wall and install room treatment panels etc plus the sidewalls (not forgeting the back well behind the listener especially if it's very near).
This is probably a modern European apartment with its hi-fi owner enjoying large and tall soundstage plus view, image will probably be blurred and sound is hard.
Oh, I find it hard to believe why some people like to place their super high-end speakers by the windows.
Can you see the speakers in this room !
Talking about tall and big rooms, this one looks most eye catching to me, just look at those glass towers and gigantic windows.
Back to reality, this room has stone wall and floor but with wooden side walls, so you have a combo of very different tonality.
Finally, we have emperor's and empress' seat. I think this system is enjoyed by lovers. Notice the corner bass trap (also absorb all low frequency details) but the glass windows are detrimental to imaging, soundstage and harmonic decay.
My trip to HK has come to the end and We are awaiting our flight back. It ended up being a bit busier than expected. So maybe we will meet at a more convenient time.
Just picking up on a few interesting things you mentioned:
correct tonality - this means the voice, the instrument should sound like the singer and the musical instrument in the recording;
My guess would be accurate low frequency management (placement and volume of low frequency absorption).
1. Ive experienced that placement of the devices are important in reference to the area in which there is the most problem.
2. Making sure the device addresses the frequency which is problematic is also another variable.
3. Volume of bass absorption - my experience has been when you first apply it, it has an overwhelming effect and your judgment is clouded. Most of the time, its too much. The over time, one would remove bit by bit and re experiment to attain the most suitable compromise in accordance to ones listening ability.
harmonic decay - this is present in natural sound;
Again Im guessing this will be reverb times in the room.
This will be related to amount of absorption of all frequencies but mainly related to low frequency again as it has the longest waves.
Mids and highs again will depend on the amount of reflections which pollute the direct sound from your speakers. I guess that's why glass, carpets, concrete walls and wood floors will have various tonal effects that may or may not be beneficial to our perceived sound.
space and image - this is most difficult to reproduce as it requires firstly the technique of the recording engineer plus hi-fi enthusiast's ability to reproduce this;
We have heard about no walls in the room. Absorption of unwanted bass nodes, enough scattering and or diffusion of mids and highs. Enough is arbitrary because these same things will affect palpability, imaging, soundstage.
palpable image and soundstage - these are absent in a live concert but these are what most hi-fi enthusiasts get hooked on, it's like salt and flavouring in any good tasting dish;
not one of my strong points or more accurately, my forte. This can be tiring for me every time I listen to music. So, I just need it to be relaxing without being overly critical and clinical.
micro and macro dynamics - this is where live and recorded music CONVERGE and makes listener immediately get engaged in his/her listening;
This I have been discussing locally with close friends about tuning. Love this aspect as it has allowed the dynamics to overcome some of the problems with a small, squarish room.
overall stress free sound - whether you play it at normal or pretty loud sound level.
And rightfully placed and said, all the above will give you an overall stress free sound.
Mr Z, please share more. Im learning. SO far its about what the problem is, why is it happening and how can it be overcome for me. Im open to feedback and criticism.
My journey is long winded as Im challenged for time. I accept this as part of the fun and the proverbial race to audio nirvana in which im happy and accept that I will not stand on the podium.
Happy listening
Best wishes,
Khairul