Finally, the system that nearly made me cry, I was a very very proud owner of the legendary Linn, Naim, Isobarik system which I bought by working partime, student grant and loan in 1978, it really rocked....
But today, this new design, even playing on latest LP12 turntable, sounded the worst when Mr Tiefenbrun junior (on the left) played an old Black Sabbath LP.
Finally, after over 5 hours of listening (without lunch or coffee break), I went to meet up a writer for stereotimes.com outside Cessaro room. Then I spent remaining of the afternoon there.
Cessaro horns, for the first time in many years, are partnering with different amps (Italian make) and Aussie turntable (designer of Continuum). The sound in my opinion is better than before, smooth and slightly warm. Of course, the 300B amp won't kick butt but why would any civilized audiophile blast this system with Mahler, right.
After a very satisfying breakfast, I was ready and eager to see and hear some new systems especially those aren't available in H. K.
The first system I went to was a very fascinating one as I saw it in the M. O. C. event magazine. It's from the States, designed and built by seasoned music lover (probably not classical music lovers).
The designer told me the mid-range driver can deliver well over 110 db in output and boy, it could play loud and very dynamic.
They also made a vintage Bluetooth system which claimed to be able to play over 110 db.
I listened for half and hour but ultimately did not think the sound was refined enough for me plus lack of rich mid bass and low bass but it can really swing !
While I was listening to above sysyem, a writer for sterotimes.com bumped into me and recommended me to hear a pair of Spanish horn speakers which had impressed him the most. I then went and had a proper listen. Sure enough, the overall sound was easily one of the best in the show. The speakers reproduced a wide soundstage, good imaging and above all, had rich sound and good mid plus low bass.
After this wonderful encounter, I proceeded to audition Cessaro's latest speakers, model Mendelssohn I believe, driven by the same Italian amps in the main room. I think these speakers will perform admirably in HK homes.
I then visited a number of rooms with very different sound......
This could be one hell of a system but the ignorant DJ there was playing very rubbish stream too loud, I subsequently left the room in disgust.
Should now by now they need to pair with valve amps.
Even these very very expensive hardwares are not helping too much.
I once had a their JP500s. Nostalgic sound and somewhat muffled. Many old hifi farts and middle aged audiophiles in HK like their stuffs.
I think the speakers are not bringing the best of these Swedish gears.
This room definitely sounded more lively than the other room I visited on Sat.
This is a famous manufacturer of single full range speaker units. I think the pair on demo are employing field coil, very coherent sound at normal level until you drive them very loud.
I met the designer here 12 years ago, a young designer with passion for live classical music. The flagship speakers had undergone many different designs since the. Sound was good despite minimal acoustic treatment but ultimately failed to perform seamlessly.
A very down-to-earth UK system with very low price but producing very decent sound. I would definitely place it as best in the budget system category.
Planar speakers have both strengths and weakness - I had Apogees in the late 80s. Sound was lively and exciting in the first 5 mins of listening but then fatigues developed as I was unable to hear solid imaging, could it be due to phase shift ?
Another eye catching horn speakers. I think Germany has the largest number of horn manufacturers in the world.
I strongly feel Living Voice speakers from the UK are mimicking the image and price of Kondo in Japan. So save up your money and become a proud owner but not a discernable audiophile.
The is the most expensive and best sounding PA system in the world, bar none. The published price tag is 3.6 mio euros.
The speakers are not my cup of tea, period.
I may well like these unusually looking speakers if the DJ played only played something I like. Very open and dynamic sound. See the very big crossover behind the orange cubes which look like they are turning over.
These German horn speakers used to be very reasonably price but not sure what this pair cost. Sound could be much better if some kind of room acoustic treatment is made.
I also saw some more room tuning hardwares, see below....
That's all folks on my coverage. Need to get up very early on Monday to catch a flight to N. America. I have been away from HK since beginning of May and am enjoying myself immensely.
Will write a summary of my M. O. C. impression later.......................................
The 3 days I spent in Munich was refreshing and enjoyable as they were a lot less stressful than my previous visit some 12 years ago, I could focused on listening to as many different gears I wanted to, it was also like a young lad in a candy shop.
This time, I really listened without the faintest inclination of buying anything, the price tags of so-called super high end stuffs were just crazy.
Before some of you accuse me in your heart because I couldn't afford to buy those big ticket items, then I deliberately bad mouth them, you still can but I really don't give a monkey's toss on your negative feedback as I was speaking (writing) from the heart.
Honestly speaking, I was rather surprised to find listening to hi fi for a good few days would be so physically and mentally TIRING !
I can explain this, although you can easily enjoy playing music at home for 3-5 hours as your brain is used to the music and the physical environment as well as the ambient temperature. Not so at M. O. C. or other big venues where the listening room is utterly unfamiliar to you, the system, the music, room acoustics plus DISTORTIONS like standing waves flying all over the place simply screw up your aural sensors.
I spent a minimum 5-10 mins in each room I visited and always tried to sit in the middle as well as the best position, sometimes I ended staying there for 25-30 mins. I needed to work my brain and concentration very very hard in order to evaluate the overall sound after allowing for room anomalies due to distortions. However, after leaving one room to another, I had to do the same all over again and this is rather demanding especially I did it almost non stop for 5 hours continously. Sunday was worst due to fairly warm weather in Munich where some rooms were hot and stuffy.
After overcoming the aforementioned challenges, it was ultimately fun. In my opinion, the overall sound was slightly less engaging than previous visit if my memory serves me right. Over 50% of the exhibitors were using stream music to demo their systems, many of them simply used their mobile phones to change music cos it was very easy and convenient - screw them I said to myself as I'm sure this will degrade the overall sound.
To my surprise, only a very very handful of the exitbitors used a decent CD player whilst many used turntable to spin vinyls.
So in the end, what's the actual take away on this visit ? I'm so happy that to my very very subjective scores, my systems sounds the best to my ears. In this capital world of consumerism, hi fi manufacturers are strifing to roll out new products to satisfy their users as most of us want more, different and better products with our hard earned dole.
Take speaker and turntable makers for instance, these things have been around for over 100 years, simply by looking at the so many designs, this show they still have not found the best design. So why bother if you have found your system which brings pride and joy to you.
Big hi fi shows nowadays like in Munich are for manufacturers to attract overseas dealers rather than end users domestically or globally. I sometimes why some manufacturers such as amp makers partner with certain speaker makers whose designs may not bring the best of their products (go back to my comments if u are curious).
Having said that, I also noticed many audiophiles who came to a certain room and if the sound is not good, they would walk out pretty quickly while some may stay for 15 mins or longer if the sound is good. This goes to show many audiophiles have discerning ears. I also had interesting conversations with a dealer for high end brands complaining to me some his ultra high networth clients once asked for a 50% price discounts. This may give me the idea most rich hi fi folks out there have cloth ears as they have time to make money but none to tweak their systems - this is my own personal experiences also, ha ha !
In closing, if you have never been to Munich show, I urge you to go there next year, it's fun and you are in the company with good folks and food.
Whoa Mr. Zanden! I was in MOC for 2 full days too. I went to all rooms you visited. I read the comments of yours. You are damn spot on many perspectives. It is fun to read. My only disagreement is your comments on Cessaro. That room’s comfort zone is vocal and smaller band jazz. It got the right groovy and mood. I got all that sitting far away from the big orange horn. You must know the energy of the mid range/treble is way more than the bass. I don’t blame that because it ain’t got the big woofer horn of your lovely beta. But piano has no definition at all, the physical presence of the piano disintegrated , high pitch notes are not there, and bass notes are too loose. The transients are not there. You don’t really listen to piano if my memory serves me right. Your reference is mostly violin. On the contrary, I listen to piano most of the time. The smaller Opus speakers are not bad from integration point of view. That’s fine. We all have our own music preferences.
You know what? Manufacturers don’t really know how to listen like us. They do the show to do business. Cost sharing of the room is the priority, not really about demonstrating the best sound. Choice of partners are based on dealer requirements, like Wadax teaming up with Dan Agostino and Magico speakers for the sake of the US market. The room that really think from “good sound” perspectives are there. I was surprised you didn’t go to those.
The Kroma/APL/VAC room is a good one. The AudioNec room downstairs is a good one. I stay more than 30 mins of each on both day. They spoke the truth.
Referring to your earlier comments of listening to live music, during the days of Goldman Sachs, I listened to the Berlin Philharmonic twice a year for a straight decade. I don’t have the ambition of reproducing the reality of them at home because we all know that it is not possible. We can only reproduce the aura, plus some imagination, then we can imagine we are there. I know many people who go to concerts but their audio systems don’t perform accordingly. I suspect this is not an exact right route though it sounds intuitively correct. Richness of tone we admire all the time. Longer or shorter sustain changes the tone impression. Audiophiles including me prefers longer than normal sustain. In live, my experience is that sustain is not as long as what we listened normally from hi Fi system. They are much faster in real live.
I also don’t buy we should replicate the stage of sitting 10 rows or whatever rows farther away from the stage. The balance engineer of DG or Decca, with a rich literature on how they recorded a symphony simply never considers the perspective of audiences. It always references to the conductor position. This position the SPL and energy balance is what it really matters. The conductor and the recording engineer determines what you hear. We can imagine whatever we want to.
The 2023 M.O.C. is now a distant memory and almost 3 months later, I attended the annual H.K. high-end show which I was never impressed with (more qualifications needed below) last weekend.
After writing a fairly lengthy account of my impression on M.O.C.'s 3-day visit, then a subsequent local hi-fi media phone interview, I received several comments that my impression was overly critical. In hindsight, I am happy I did it as it came from my heart even though some of the comments were contrary to some of the hi-fi reports made by folks who either worked in the audio industry or are amateurs which I believe do not have similar listening skills/ hearing sensitivity as me.
Of course, after returning to H.K. , I spent a lot of time listening to and evaluating my home system which confirmed my listening impression. I tweaked my system a little more and raised its performance a tad more also. It has almost real-life tonality and imaging and above all, one can now play at pretty high sound level free of hardness and compression, these are the qualities/yardsticks I use to evaluate my system and occasionally, others.
Now that I'm a happy retiree, I have lots of free time and spent nearly one full day last Friday attending the H.K. high-end show as I have nothing better to do. I'm sure all of you have seen many photos posted by others, so I have no intention of uploading any (I only took a very small handful of pics).
In a nutshell, the show is more like any other shows for retail products. The overall sound performance is well below M.O.C. Before some of you start cursing at me for this arrogant comment, the reason for this conclusion is the venue, Convention Centre, the individual rooms, especially the large ones, are catered for hosting business conference meetings. They are larger and have much higher ceilings plus more large side windows than those in M.O.C., which are utterly 'unsuitable/detrimental' for audio reproduction.
The most immediate sound effects of these large conference rooms are lack of power (loss of dynamics/bass) plus sound reflection flying everywhere. As a result, you cannot hear/ see proper soundstage, so the much smaller rooms set up by panels on level 3 are better for sound performance evaluation even though only about 10-12 people can sit down in the room.
Let's get to the chase for the purpose of writing this particular post. The major take away from my visit at M.O.C. and H.K. high-end show is, wait, take a deep breath as some of you will get totally agitated by what I'm going to say (write about)........................................
When we listen to our speakers, the normal box design for instance, many of them, large or small will employ speaker drivers/units made by certain manufactures : Dynaudio, Focal, Accuton, Dynavox and Lowther to name a few. Even the same drivers mounted on different speaker brands/cabinets sound totally different.
Let's simplify things a bit, forget about the use of cross-overs and wirings etc, the sound we hear is the result of the wood cabinet. When fellow audiophiles visit their comrades who are using their same models, the system with identical speakers sound totally different (better or worst). Why is that ?
It is my belief this acoustic anomaly is the result of room effect/influence. When we listen to a pair of speakers, its tonality is highly influenced by resonance of the cabinets. When we hear our system, the sound is highly influenced by our listening room, then its associating rooms, corridors, kitchen, balcony, upstairs and downstairs (basement). The room that we listen to our system dictates the sound irrespective of the equipment we employ (shock and horror !).
Therefore, it is the room we listen to our proud system that decides on whether our system will sing or sing out of tune. In H.K.,when most listening environment is relatively tiny (esp. mine with the huge horns I'm employing) with large side windows and sometimes long corridors, there is NO WAY we can hear our system properly as the sound distortion caused by numerous types of sound reflections will totally distort the sound especially at certain frequency range.
Of course, even through your room has serious sound reflection problems caused by large windows, not to mention bass problems (either too much or lack of it), one can discern better/different sound when we employ a new set of cables or hardware etc and dismiss the importance of proper room acoustics.
Let's take an example to highlight what I'm driving at. I have recently become more critical in wine tasting, if you drink from a paper cup, plastic cup, ceramic cup, glass and proper wine glass, then compare a bottle of plonk (cheap, low quality wine) with a good French Bordeaux, you can instantly taste the latter being vastly better no matter what cup you're using. However, the good Bordeaux will taste its best on a fine wine glass ( Riedel Sommelier Grand Cru Burgundy). Then after some months, you realise serving wine, white or red at their ideal temperature will make them taste even better on your palate.
Dear audio comrades, I hope by now you understand what I'm trying to say. If you agree with me, then you will decide when to embark on this long and winding journey of optimising your room acoustics with sometimes utter frustration and sometimes ecstasy. Alternatively, you may simply dismiss the effects of room acoustics and keep buying/changing your gear and feel fully satisfied/fulfilled after owning your dream system and then await similar acknowledgement from your audio buddies when you invite them over to share your delight.
There is a saying which I once used in this forum many years ago, "Life is a journey, travel it well". Hi-fi to many of us serious audiophiles is part of our life, I feel particularly sorry for one hi-fi acquaintance who has spent all his life owning just about every imaginable top hi-fi gear in a wrongly purpose built room, he is still continuing switching (as opposed to upgrading) different brands of top cables, electronics and transducers.
In closing, ultimately, if you are truly happy/satisfied with sound of your proud system, then it is a real blessing as you have found certain genuine happiness in life and that's no bad at all !
Thank you for your account on the events have passed and I have missed. I've resorted to visiting rooms at shows that "try" to emphasise on acoustic treatment with "some sort" of scientific explanation. But unfortunately and not to my surprise this has come to no avail.
During Covid, I spent my days and nights reading various "encyclopaedias" on room acoustics for listening rooms again and again. Not sound rooms, AV and recording rooms.
Long story short, theory is theory. Theory is important in understanding sound relation to frequency, frequency spectrums, how to control them, speaker placement, room size, "benollo", "Bolts", etc etc. Then comes intangibles ie exposure and experience to music in various environments, neuroacoustics and "naturalness"/or not being too clinical and many more. The balance between these are owner dependant.
The room factor is a time consuming variable which is fun BUT plenty of homework is required. The questions will be what are the problems, how do I rectify them and to what quantity so that I do not take away the "naturalness" of it all. All in moderation.
I have been through the process of putting everything and living/experincing the musical outcome for 6-12 months. It's easy to accept it but deep down, there is always a frequency band which is lacking. Improve one, lose one. Now I'm in the phase of subtracting items. Some cheap and some expensive. Its that fine balance of getting the low frequency managed and purity of the mids and highs that sounds natural to my ears.
"To my ears" is another variable that needs training. Concert halls, jazz clubs, studios, dealer studios and friends are just some of the resources to build on my experiences.
Im no expert on this matter but Im motivated and open to the variety of opinions.
Mr Z, please keep it coming. Taboo or not, sexy or not, acoustic real estate and tuning is here for the taking. Teach me more.
Will be in HK at the end of the month to send my daughter who will be starting her degree. Will be cool to meet up everyone.
Comments
But today, this new design, even playing on latest LP12 turntable, sounded the worst when Mr Tiefenbrun junior (on the left) played an old Black Sabbath LP.
Cessaro horns, for the first time in many years, are partnering with different amps (Italian make) and Aussie turntable (designer of Continuum). The sound in my opinion is better than before, smooth and slightly warm. Of course, the 300B amp won't kick butt but why would any civilized audiophile blast this system with Mahler, right.
More to follow to cover Sunday's visit.
Happy listening
Mr Z
I'm drink n eating while loading the may pics above, the picture of the system which produced the most bass is below....
First thing first, a hearty breakfast to get me through a long day (skipping lunch), how about champagne breakfast in an extremely relaxed place...
The designer told me the mid-range driver can deliver well over 110 db in output and boy, it could play loud and very dynamic.
They also made a vintage Bluetooth system which claimed to be able to play over 110 db.
While I was listening to above sysyem, a writer for sterotimes.com bumped into me and recommended me to hear a pair of Spanish horn speakers which had impressed him the most. I then went and had a proper listen. Sure enough, the overall sound was easily one of the best in the show. The speakers reproduced a wide soundstage, good imaging and above all, had rich sound and good mid plus low bass.
This could be one hell of a system but the ignorant DJ there was playing very rubbish stream too loud, I subsequently left the room in disgust.
Should now by now they need to pair with valve amps.
Even these very very expensive hardwares are not helping too much.
I once had a their JP500s. Nostalgic sound and somewhat muffled. Many old hifi farts and middle aged audiophiles in HK like their stuffs.
I think the speakers are not bringing the best of these Swedish gears.
This room definitely sounded more lively than the other room I visited on Sat.
This is a famous manufacturer of single full range speaker units. I think the pair on demo are employing field coil, very coherent sound at normal level until you drive them very loud.
I met the designer here 12 years ago, a young designer with passion for live classical music. The flagship speakers had undergone many different designs since the. Sound was good despite minimal acoustic treatment but ultimately failed to perform seamlessly.
A very down-to-earth UK system with very low price but producing very decent sound. I would definitely place it as best in the budget system category.
Planar speakers have both strengths and weakness - I had Apogees in the late 80s. Sound was lively and exciting in the first 5 mins of listening but then fatigues developed as I was unable to hear solid imaging, could it be due to phase shift ?
Another eye catching horn speakers. I think Germany has the largest number of horn manufacturers in the world.
I strongly feel Living Voice speakers from the UK are mimicking the image and price of Kondo in Japan. So save up your money and become a proud owner but not a discernable audiophile.
The is the most expensive and best sounding PA system in the world, bar none. The published price tag is 3.6 mio euros.
The speakers are not my cup of tea, period.
I may well like these unusually looking speakers if the DJ played only played something I like. Very open and dynamic sound. See the very big crossover behind the orange cubes which look like they are turning over.
These German horn speakers used to be very reasonably price but not sure what this pair cost. Sound could be much better if some kind of room acoustic treatment is made.
I also saw some more room tuning hardwares, see below....
That's all folks on my coverage. Need to get up very early on Monday to catch a flight to N. America. I have been away from HK since beginning of May and am enjoying myself immensely.
Will write a summary of my M. O. C. impression later.......................................
In the meantime, happy listening,
Mr Z
Hello London - see Canary Wharf below
Let's simplify things a bit, forget about the use of cross-overs and wirings etc, the sound we hear is the result of the wood cabinet. When fellow audiophiles visit their comrades who are using their same models, the system with identical speakers sound totally different (better or worst). Why is that ?
It is my belief this acoustic anomaly is the result of room effect/influence. When we listen to a pair of speakers, its tonality is highly influenced by resonance of the cabinets. When we hear our system, the sound is highly influenced by our listening room, then its associating rooms, corridors, kitchen, balcony, upstairs and downstairs (basement). The room that we listen to our system dictates the sound irrespective of the equipment we employ (shock and horror !).
Thank you for your account on the events have passed and I have missed. I've resorted to visiting rooms at shows that "try" to emphasise on acoustic treatment with "some sort" of scientific explanation. But unfortunately and not to my surprise this has come to no avail.
During Covid, I spent my days and nights reading various "encyclopaedias" on room acoustics for listening rooms again and again. Not sound rooms, AV and recording rooms.
Long story short, theory is theory. Theory is important in understanding sound relation to frequency, frequency spectrums, how to control them, speaker placement, room size, "benollo", "Bolts", etc etc. Then comes intangibles ie exposure and experience to music in various environments, neuroacoustics and "naturalness"/or not being too clinical and many more. The balance between these are owner dependant.
The room factor is a time consuming variable which is fun BUT plenty of homework is required. The questions will be what are the problems, how do I rectify them and to what quantity so that I do not take away the "naturalness" of it all. All in moderation.
I have been through the process of putting everything and living/experincing the musical outcome for 6-12 months. It's easy to accept it but deep down, there is always a frequency band which is lacking. Improve one, lose one. Now I'm in the phase of subtracting items. Some cheap and some expensive. Its that fine balance of getting the low frequency managed and purity of the mids and highs that sounds natural to my ears.
"To my ears" is another variable that needs training. Concert halls, jazz clubs, studios, dealer studios and friends are just some of the resources to build on my experiences.
Im no expert on this matter but Im motivated and open to the variety of opinions.
Mr Z, please keep it coming. Taboo or not, sexy or not, acoustic real estate and tuning is here for the taking. Teach me more.
Will be in HK at the end of the month to send my daughter who will be starting her degree. Will be cool to meet up everyone.
Best wishes,
KFM