PT. I am damned. The reality of the lower mid bass dynamic from your Beta is unheard of. I can imagine balance without the big horn must be too much mid range focus. I can understand why you guys enjoy so much sex with horn. The sense of speed resembles live performance very much. I am surprised by your room - damn quiet. The placement of those forest like acoustic tools on the 1st reflection point on both side is mandatory. Without them, there is too much energy in the sofa position. Anyway, this is one hell of a real 4-way mega horn system in town. I am sure it takes time to optimize it further. I am impressed. The Takumi is good amp, I like it.
I am also shocked by the transparency of the Tidal Sunray. Reproduction of piano is damn real. The tonal color is accurate with correct pitch on bass keys. I never imagine it is possible to get piano reproduction in such realism in CD playback. I agree that the Zanden phono does not has enough gain for the Tidal system. The Tron does a better job in this regard. Well, I am a big fan of Tron as always.
The Sunray is the most coherent speakers I have ever heard. I felt like listening to a single driver. It is seamless.
But the sexy horn is also the most dyanmic speaker I have ever come across. The dynamic resembles the closest to reality based on my concert experience.
The Spartan is a must buy. On the big horn system, AC noises will be magnified should any one of the components is unplugged from the Spartan. The sound is very organic, delicate and full of transients. When PT told me the entire system was plugged into the Spartan including the Takumi and the two active amps driving the subs, I was kind of skeptical because the system is extremely dynamic. I told PT to unplug the Takumi from the Spartan and try again - the result is I could not stand for 2 minutes. There are much more noises all across the frequency band. If those noises are considered as dynamic details, I am damned and please take those details away as gifts. I don't need such noised induced gifts. I felt like there is no energy control at all. When this energy bouncing back and forth with noises, it hurt my ears. I cannot concentrate anymore. The soprano has completely lose the control of upper high energy.
I am glad I got mine. Seriously stuff for serious system.
Voy, great that you have listened to the 2 systems in one go and bring to this forum your perspective of both speakers and the Spartan. Both Troy and Spartan are serious stuff and for serious listeners. I am glad to be one of the users...they are the fundamentals like the SRA, Critical Mass and the room acoustics devices that one cannot do away with.
Takumi is an extraordinary piece of amplifiers! I am using it in-between Tidal Preos and Contriva Diacera SE speakers, I am perfectly happy with such mix and match eventhough I have the Impact Stereo 'standing by' in case I want to listen to a whole suite but frankly I would like to leave the Tidal family re-union with perhaps the bigger mono brother of the amplifier family!
Hey Marvel bro, how's your Tidal speakers doing? I understand more about the German gangs now. The Sunray is real cool, extremely coherent and transparent. I got to listen again with the addition of the subwoofer.
PT was completely at loss in the past few weeks because he spent all of his time to get the Tidal suite up and running to meet expectation. He got it right now, having too much bass that trigger him to "flat" all the original upward adjustment on crossover frequency and sub loudness.
Obviously, he lacked the time to fine tune his mega horn system at home. He told me that you were not satisfied about the performance. He called me up for assistance. I am no horn expert. I just know if a system sounds good, there must be technical reasons behind him. So do see me as an arrogant technocrat.
I believe now his mega horn system sounds extremely lively, transparent, and dynamic at all frequency. The trick is the lower mid-bass horn crossover frequency. To my ears, it started rolling off gently at around 140hz to 160hz. Now that is a pretty high low-cut. That is tricky. Because if the acoustics is not right - too much lower mid bass circulating in the room, we will be tempted to lower the crossover frequency to compensate acoustic deficiency. But if we lower it too much, the lower mid range begins to sound strange. The presnece of subwoofer presents another complexity because we can't really say there is no bass or lack of foundation as the solid state amp supports foundation well.
Now, the crossover frequency is around 140hz. PT later confirmed that is the region where the big horn starts rolling off and it has to be because anyting lower than that would require a much much bigger horn to load the lower mid bass.
His Tron 211 telstar and the syren reference fed by the Zanden digital source yields a very transparent sonic landscape with no bloats at lower mid-bass. Very clean basslines, and dynamics of the piano makes me understand why some big brother would prefer horn over conventional design.
I see no faults at all with the full Beta system. The speed is very fast across the band. If the room is deeper, the thrill of the dynamic of low frequency would thrill my spine more.
Go and listen some time and correct my misdeeds if you find any. Again, I have no experience on horn, just based on my ears.
Why don't I just jump in and speak a few words before Uncle Ray? Frankly speaking, I wasn't expecting such monster speaker can perform reasonably well at all in the apartment size of PT. But it does reasonably well.
The bass definition is hindered by the quality of the speaker cable and the quality of the interconnect going into the Sub. FMR goes to the main speakers but he uses organic to feed the session below 140hz. That is very wrong, clearly. A demonstration of the T1 Subtower below 30hz, a pair of cable serving just this part can change everything.
The guy (plastic bag man?)is quite a clever man I would never dare realigning the positions of the various horns. He did it magnificiently. Imaging is palpable. Focus is spot on. Rhythm and pace are there. But what shocked me and Uncle Ray is the layering and the amount of extremely subtle details that I wasn't expect from Zanden 2000p/5000s. I am still a user of the Zanden suite.
The orange rack is really something, it must be.
PT must sort out the cables to the subwoofer session if he wants to being this system level on par with the mega Tidal. For those who don't believe in cables should seek PT to do a demo. In the last calibration process, cable is the most important variable.
His spk positions are good. Everything is there but both of us can hear a clear segregation where the sub-woofers take control. 140hz is a pretty high cut. If we turned off the main speakers, you can still follow the whole rhythm of the music from start to end. A lesser grade cable in this session will magnify all the shortcomings of this "cut".
Also we did an experiment of not connecting Troy to the subwoofer. The result is an disaster. Because the lower mid-bass horn and the sub have much higher efficiency than the mid horns. Noises are thus magnified exponentially. A similar experiment were done on the power cable feeding the subwoofers. Same conclusions. You just cannot save any costs if you want to achieve the utopia.
It is definitely quite a system in town but our ears are getting pricky after all these years. Bass defintion must be better though impact and speed are there already.
You played the bad cop this time. I wanna be the good cop.
The details coming out from this system are ultra smooth and completely free of mechanical vibration artifacts. The rack is phenomenal. Because it cleaned up so much mechanical artifacts, the tonal shadows that were not present before are revealed vividly now. On good recording, it seems as though the artist is sitting in front of us. (To compare, a Tidal system will bring us into the recording venue. It is a totally different experience.) I bought one on spot just for the Vekian CDT/DAC. I like it minimialistic, short cables, space saving and looks cool. Orange fits well with the piano black Sunray.
The soundstaging is sandwitched by spatial cues and ambience details making the presentation completed vividly. It is not a small feat. The plastic bag man who positioned this speaker must be someone with a professional trained ears. Although the speaker positions are assymetrically placed with the right channel clearly a few inches closer to the back wall than the left channel, the focus and imaging are superb.
As VR pointed out, there is no point to use cheap cables for the subwoofer session. This is actually stupid. If your mind continues to operate in an intuitive mode where the best should give to the widest frequency range, i.e. everything playing above the subwoofer, you are not qualified as an extremist. The best should start from the bottom. More often than not, the subwoofer improves everything about it more than the bass itself.
Can you take away the entire bass session from the orchestra because they are responsible for 250hz and below? If the answer is no, then why are you using lesster cables in the session because bass deserves lesser quality? But you fed the sub with good powercords and silver signature ground wires.
Changed the damn speaker cables and the interconnects then. The bass definition will come back. Don't just focus on the impact. There should be lots of details from the lower register.
PT, may be you should try to push the Cessaro main and sub backward. I felt there was standing waves at the back of the speakers. Loweer mid bass should be faster. Try to put a lamb skin in front of the big lower mid horn to absorb some of the energy.
I feel it can be done. Your rack takes care a lot of problem and is totally stressfree. Let me know after you change the speaker cable for the sub session. I will come again.
Comments
I am also shocked by the transparency of the Tidal Sunray. Reproduction of piano is damn real. The tonal color is accurate with correct pitch on bass keys. I never imagine it is possible to get piano reproduction in such realism in CD playback. I agree that the Zanden phono does not has enough gain for the Tidal system. The Tron does a better job in this regard. Well, I am a big fan of Tron as always.
You opened my eyes yesterday.
But the sexy horn is also the most dyanmic speaker I have ever come across. The dynamic resembles the closest to reality based on my concert experience.
The Spartan is a must buy. On the big horn system, AC noises will be magnified should any one of the components is unplugged from the Spartan. The sound is very organic, delicate and full of transients. When PT told me the entire system was plugged into the Spartan including the Takumi and the two active amps driving the subs, I was kind of skeptical because the system is extremely dynamic. I told PT to unplug the Takumi from the Spartan and try again - the result is I could not stand for 2 minutes. There are much more noises all across the frequency band. If those noises are considered as dynamic details, I am damned and please take those details away as gifts. I don't need such noised induced gifts. I felt like there is no energy control at all. When this energy bouncing back and forth with noises, it hurt my ears. I cannot concentrate anymore. The soprano has completely lose the control of upper high energy.
I am glad I got mine. Seriously stuff for serious system.
Takumi is an extraordinary piece of amplifiers! I am using it in-between Tidal Preos and Contriva Diacera SE speakers, I am perfectly happy with such mix and match eventhough I have the Impact Stereo 'standing by' in case I want to listen to a whole suite but frankly I would like to leave the Tidal family re-union with perhaps the bigger mono brother of the amplifier family!
Marvel
PT was completely at loss in the past few weeks because he spent all of his time to get the Tidal suite up and running to meet expectation. He got it right now, having too much bass that trigger him to "flat" all the original upward adjustment on crossover frequency and sub loudness.
Obviously, he lacked the time to fine tune his mega horn system at home. He told me that you were not satisfied about the performance. He called me up for assistance. I am no horn expert. I just know if a system sounds good, there must be technical reasons behind him. So do see me as an arrogant technocrat.
I believe now his mega horn system sounds extremely lively, transparent, and dynamic at all frequency. The trick is the lower mid-bass horn crossover frequency. To my ears, it started rolling off gently at around 140hz to 160hz. Now that is a pretty high low-cut. That is tricky. Because if the acoustics is not right - too much lower mid bass circulating in the room, we will be tempted to lower the crossover frequency to compensate acoustic deficiency. But if we lower it too much, the lower mid range begins to sound strange. The presnece of subwoofer presents another complexity because we can't really say there is no bass or lack of foundation as the solid state amp supports foundation well.
Now, the crossover frequency is around 140hz. PT later confirmed that is the region where the big horn starts rolling off and it has to be because anyting lower than that would require a much much bigger horn to load the lower mid bass.
His Tron 211 telstar and the syren reference fed by the Zanden digital source yields a very transparent sonic landscape with no bloats at lower mid-bass. Very clean basslines, and dynamics of the piano makes me understand why some big brother would prefer horn over conventional design.
I see no faults at all with the full Beta system. The speed is very fast across the band. If the room is deeper, the thrill of the dynamic of low frequency would thrill my spine more.
Go and listen some time and correct my misdeeds if you find any. Again, I have no experience on horn, just based on my ears.
I'll be in town auditioning both german systems in 1st week of Oct. Wanna join me and give me some opinions?
VR
Did u listen to the Tidal sub tower? I must copy your word, i am equally impressed to it.
The bass definition is hindered by the quality of the speaker cable and the quality of the interconnect going into the Sub. FMR goes to the main speakers but he uses organic to feed the session below 140hz. That is very wrong, clearly. A demonstration of the T1 Subtower below 30hz, a pair of cable serving just this part can change everything.
The guy (plastic bag man?)is quite a clever man I would never dare realigning the positions of the various horns. He did it magnificiently. Imaging is palpable. Focus is spot on. Rhythm and pace are there. But what shocked me and Uncle Ray is the layering and the amount of extremely subtle details that I wasn't expect from Zanden 2000p/5000s. I am still a user of the Zanden suite.
The orange rack is really something, it must be.
PT must sort out the cables to the subwoofer session if he wants to being this system level on par with the mega Tidal. For those who don't believe in cables should seek PT to do a demo. In the last calibration process, cable is the most important variable.
His spk positions are good. Everything is there but both of us can hear a clear segregation where the sub-woofers take control. 140hz is a pretty high cut. If we turned off the main speakers, you can still follow the whole rhythm of the music from start to end. A lesser grade cable in this session will magnify all the shortcomings of this "cut".
Also we did an experiment of not connecting Troy to the subwoofer. The result is an disaster. Because the lower mid-bass horn and the sub have much higher efficiency than the mid horns. Noises are thus magnified exponentially. A similar experiment were done on the power cable feeding the subwoofers. Same conclusions. You just cannot save any costs if you want to achieve the utopia.
It is definitely quite a system in town but our ears are getting pricky after all these years. Bass defintion must be better though impact and speed are there already.
The details coming out from this system are ultra smooth and completely free of mechanical vibration artifacts. The rack is phenomenal. Because it cleaned up so much mechanical artifacts, the tonal shadows that were not present before are revealed vividly now. On good recording, it seems as though the artist is sitting in front of us. (To compare, a Tidal system will bring us into the recording venue. It is a totally different experience.) I bought one on spot just for the Vekian CDT/DAC. I like it minimialistic, short cables, space saving and looks cool. Orange fits well with the piano black Sunray.
The soundstaging is sandwitched by spatial cues and ambience details making the presentation completed vividly. It is not a small feat. The plastic bag man who positioned this speaker must be someone with a professional trained ears. Although the speaker positions are assymetrically placed with the right channel clearly a few inches closer to the back wall than the left channel, the focus and imaging are superb.
As VR pointed out, there is no point to use cheap cables for the subwoofer session. This is actually stupid. If your mind continues to operate in an intuitive mode where the best should give to the widest frequency range, i.e. everything playing above the subwoofer, you are not qualified as an extremist. The best should start from the bottom. More often than not, the subwoofer improves everything about it more than the bass itself.
Can you take away the entire bass session from the orchestra because they are responsible for 250hz and below? If the answer is no, then why are you using lesster cables in the session because bass deserves lesser quality? But you fed the sub with good powercords and silver signature ground wires.
Changed the damn speaker cables and the interconnects then. The bass definition will come back. Don't just focus on the impact. There should be lots of details from the lower register.
Anyway, this is a great system, still.
I feel it can be done. Your rack takes care a lot of problem and is totally stressfree. Let me know after you change the speaker cable for the sub session. I will come again.